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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#731

Post by lolinder »

Animats wrote: post #684
junon wrote: post #77

Wait. Let me get this straight. Someone is an expert in this field. They're asked to speak at RustConf after a leadership vote. They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. (EDIT: the talk was about this, but it's also compile time reflection and came with the usual disclaimer that it was not representative of any of the Rust…

> They've also written an article about reflection in Rust - a purely technical thing that is already pretty widely disliked conceptually. Maybe that really is the problem. Too much reflection leads to clever, but hard to debug hacks. Look what happened with C++ templates and, further back, LISP macros. That way lies code that's unusually hard to read and maintain. Rust probably shouldn't go that way. Do you want to…

The would-have-been speaker's blog post addresses this question specifically. He apparently pushed back many times on the idea of giving the keynote on his work and was assured that the Rust organization was aware of the topic and wanted him to go ahead [0]. Then they walked back on that.

That's what I think most people find terrible about Rust leadership's handling of the situation. It's not that this specific keynote was super important, it's that the team let the speaker spend a few weeks preparing a keynote and then pulled the rug on him.

[0] https://thephd.dev/i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023

Re: Why I Left Rust

#733

Post by overgard »

throwaway5959 wrote: post #325
mgaunard wrote: post #142

All of the "social" aspects of programming are full of drama. There isn't a conference where I don't hear about a LGBTQ person not being offended by so and so. Then you have the politics of who gets to set out the true vision or be a chair at this or that committee. If you're serious about programming, you just stay away from both of these. Being a language expert is pretty irrelevant anyway, it's just some ego-boost…

I’m beginning to wonder whether conferences themselves are worth it in general. There’s so much content on YouTube that if your objective is learning new things, hitting that up or reading a book may be simpler (and much less expensive).

I used to love going to the Game Developers Conference (and I probably still would if not for costs), but I have found that I can get just as much out of youtube outside of networking.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#734

Post by sangnoir »

busterarm wrote: post #656
quotemstr wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've deprived a whole generation of the rhetorical tools for healthy, impersonal and professional argument. It's no wonder that they've pressed this "stylized language of emotion and abuse" into service to fill the void: it's all they know.

Skins are luxuriously thin these days, yeah.

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#735

Post by busterarm »

sangnoir wrote: post #734
busterarm wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skins are luxuriously thin these days, yeah.

[flagged]

That's not even the context we're talking about here. We're talking about professional argument. Disagreement over decisions. Hurling slurs at people isn't even in the orbit of that.

I'm talking about people being thin-skinned, petty and passive-aggressive about other people disagreeing with their ideas, which is something I see _constantly_ in this field.

It's much worse when the progress we've made is weaponized against people and minor technical/procedural disagreements get turned into "other person hates X" because they disagree with me and I'm X...which unfortunately happens sometimes (and mirrors the false-equivalency that you've presented here).

Re: Why I Left Rust

#736

Post by dagmx »

fwungy wrote: post #724
dagmx wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that “nothing can be done”. There’s lots that could be done that don’t fall in to your description of affirmative action. Invitations could be extended to people to submit proposals for a talk. This already happens, but maybe the circle gets expanded once it’s evident that the circle has been too small. The simple act of asking is often enough to make people feel welcome. I also call BS on the claim that y…

[flagged]

I don’t understand what that has to do with anything?

Discuss the merits of the argument. Likening it arbitrarily to fundamentalism is just a pointless strawman otherwise.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#737

Post by slily »

dagmx wrote: post #609
slily wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When were these supposed "systemic issues" ever identified? In my experience "systemic racism" is a vague pretext to implement racist policies that push out white people (and sometimes Asians) in favor of black people (and people considered "brown enough"). I see this at my job and at conferences: people are explicitly promoted or selected as speakers in part because they are not white (or not male). This isn't just…

There are actually lots of initiatives to increase gender diversity in early childhood education. Also systemic bias exists. That’s not an arguable point because the US has a history of anti-black rules like red lining that affect opportunities till this day. Or rules like how women could manage their funds that held women back. Other countries similarly had rules like that against various demographics. Things are be…

I don't disagree that historical systemic discrimination has effects that lasts generations and I'm not against affirmative action when applied carefully, but I think it's presumptuous and counterproductive to try to "counterbalance" a perceived systemic bias that occurred in the past at one level (for example in education), today at another level (employment or public speaking opportunities).

Equal opportunity was the right idea and technologies like the Internet helped equalize the playing field to the point that socio-economic background matters less than ever. Now we're regressing back to judging people first and foremost based on their skin color, sex, and even sexual orientation. I see my company's DEI leader making shameless statements saying that they will make sure to promote more "people from underprivileged groups" (that means people who are not white or Asian by their own definition) with no apparent regard for performance or merit. It's racist to a comical degree.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#739

Post by dagmx »

slily wrote: post #737
dagmx wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are actually lots of initiatives to increase gender diversity in early childhood education. Also systemic bias exists. That’s not an arguable point because the US has a history of anti-black rules like red lining that affect opportunities till this day. Or rules like how women could manage their funds that held women back. Other countries similarly had rules like that against various demographics. Things are be…

I don't disagree that historical systemic discrimination has effects that lasts generations and I'm not against affirmative action when applied carefully, but I think it's presumptuous and counterproductive to try to "counterbalance" a perceived systemic bias that occurred in the past at one level (for example in education), today at another level (employment or public speaking opportunities). Equal opportunity was t…

The internet doesn’t equalize things like hiring and conference representation though. Imho it’s a complete non sequitur to this discussion about the real world.

I think assuming that the anonymity afforded by the internet extends to real life is naive.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#740

Post by DonHopkins »

pdimitar wrote: post #478
tkfu wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No organisation should be "called out" for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation unless that organisation is in fact discriminatory. I don't think you're being very reasonable here. A lack of diversity is just a piece of data: it might be complete coincidence, or it might be related to some underlying bias or discrimination. "Calling out" a lack of diversity is just bringing attention to that piece of data.…

I'll risk the downvotes then. > A lack of diversity is just a piece of data: it might be complete coincidence, or it might be related to some underlying bias or discrimination. I say it's a coincidence. I've known racist people but they were an overwhelming minority and had no power. Let's stop there. Find me a systemic racist in a position of power where I work or participate in local events and I promise I'll fight…

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