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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#731

Post by dylan604 »

93po wrote: post #729
dylan604 wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you call them? there's no way possible that they can make changes to the software and have them thoroughly vetted before the OTA push. Tesla does not have enough cars owned by the company driving on public roads to vet these changes. The QA team at best can analyze the data received from the customers. That makes the customers the testers in my book.

the fact that you don't know how tesla vets these changes, very extensively, prior to any physical car receiving the update reinforces that you have no idea what you're talking about tesla does extensive, meaningful vetting of these updates. i'll let you do the research yourself so that maybe you can quit spreading misinformation

so well vetted that issues keep happening, so well vetted that a OTA "software patch" is raised to the level of automotive recall. if you call that misinformation, then, "boy, i don't know".

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#732

Post by thepasswordis »

bena wrote: post #603
thepasswordis wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Tesla doesn't just tell me I'm a safe driver, it also gives me a cheaper insurance rate due to the safe driving. The safety score is related to my monthly insurance premium. So maybe it's to stroke my ego? But they're also putting their proverbial money where their mouth is.

The insurance you get from Tesla, which has a vested interest in its own Safety Score. It's not giving a cheaper insurance rate "due to the safe driving", it's giving a cheaper rate due to having a better score on the metrics it decided. You see how that's circular, right. It does not mean you are a safe driver.

…what? No I am not following that. The safety score is a representation of the metrics used to determine the insurance rate. This is not in any way circular. The insurance rate and the safety score are representative of the same thing: safe driving.

https://www.tesla.com/support/safety-score#version-1.2

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#733

Post by webinvest »

Beaver117 wrote: post #700
orthecreedence wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're actually serious about this, we should get rid of roads altogether and replace them with rail tracks. That solves 95% of the automation problem anyway.

You're living in a fantasy. Name one country that has done that.

Spain, specifically Barcelona. An absolute joy to ride, I may add.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#734

Post by AngryData »

culi wrote: post #601
joaogui1 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total Recall

Having never seen it, I have no context for which details were left out or bent to fit the narrative, but this still feels amazing. Well-earned sunglasses

It is definitely a must-see movie, the original 1990 version with Arnold that is.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#735

Post by winter_blue »

giobox wrote: post #517
winter_blue wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The safety score check stuff is largely gone away today - anyone who pays 200 bucks can click the beta opt in and get it almost straight away now, there is ~zero risk of not getting the beta if you really want it, live in US or Canada, and are prepared to pay. Does this recall mean that FSD Beta won't be as widely & publicly available to anyone with FSD anymore?

No - the "recall" here is an OTA software update already scheduled for release. Availability remains exactly the same as far as I'm aware, and existing systems still function until updated. FWIW, NHTSA "recalls" are often OTA software updates nowadays rather than something the vehicle or feature has to be taken off road for to fix or update. The NHTSA legislation from the 60s was drafted when cars didn't have softwar…

Does the OTA disable Beta though?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#736

Post by saalweachter »

ertian wrote: post #504
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Andrej Karpathy was the AI lead for most of the project and he has talked about the general system design. They have a set of regression tests they run on new code updates either by feeding in real world data and ensuring the code outputs the expected result, or running the code in simulation. It does seem worrying that they would miss things like this. Here’s a talk from Karpathy explaining the system in 2021: https…

It's not even a bit surprising they'd miss things like this, IMHO. They do tests with a few (maybe even a lot of) intersections, but there are thousands upon thousands of intersections out there, including some where bushes are obscuring a stop sign, or the sign is at a funny angle, or sunlight is reflecting off the traffic lights, or heavy rain obscuring them, or plain old ambiguous signage...there's _bound_ to be m…

You know, there was an article on here last week about how there are only 4 billion floats, so just test them all.

There are only like 16 million intersections in the US. Why not test them all?

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#737

Post by KMnO4 »

Natsu wrote: post #728
insanitybit wrote: post #719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. If someone says "Full self driving beta" I'm thinking "The goal is full self driving, the current approach should deliver full self driving, beta means that it requires some tweaks and testing".

> I'm thinking "The goal is full self driving, the current approach should deliver full self driving, beta means that it requires some tweaks and testing". And that "bugs" involve accidents.

Reminds me of an old joke about Ford vs Microsoft. We seem to have come full circle. Abridged version:

> At a computer expo, Bill Gates compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated, 'If Ford had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.'

> In response to Bill's comments, Ford issued a press release stating:

> “Sure, but would you want to drive a car that for no reason whatsoever would crash twice a day?”

https://www.chevyhhr.net/forums/lounge-10/microsoft-vs-ford-...

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#738

Post by 00F_ »

theluketaylor wrote: post #721
00F_ wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what videos are you talking about? when i watch recent FSD videos (there have been regressions recently) on youtube the car generally drives itself. if you showed those videos to someone in the 90s they would without hesitation remark "that car drives itself!" there is zero ambiguity about this. nobody said that a self driving car could never make mistakes. the 90s person would definitely notice those mistakes but wo…

The key phrase being 'generally'. Really advanced L2 assistance features that bleed into L3+ abilities like FSD work right up until they don't, then they hand control back to a driver who is not situationally aware enough to safely operate the vehicle. "Full Self Driving" is stretching those three terms far beyond the breaking point and Tesla should absolutely be slapped down by the FTC for false and misleading adver…

its true that the name is not accurate. but in reality the name hasnt caused anyone to buy the product because they believed they could take a nap behind the wheel and tesla doesnt deceptively market the product as such. the name is inspirational, maybe one person in the world was taken by surprise by it after buying it. its just a non-issue in the real practical world. and it has nothing to do with the substance of the self-driving conversation. people just splice it in and usually not long after they add in some emerald mine rumors. i would like to just talk about the matter at hand which is self driving.

i have never heard of someone who characterized autopilot as a poorly trained teenager. not sure how thats possible since its just adaptive cruise control for the most part. and poorly trained teenagers can and do drive every day. i think we are past the point of accusations of fraud.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#739

Post by kelnos »

futuroptimist wrote: post #714
thomaskcr wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that we're arguing over the word "recall" being an issue when the system it applies to is called "full self driving". I think calling a level 2 driver assistance system "full self driving" is a much bigger inaccuracy.

To play devil's advocate, it's only a misleading label when the word "Beta" is omitted.

"Beta" just means there are likely to be bugs, not that the intention isn't (level 4/5) "full self-driving".

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#740

Post by [deleted] »

dmix wrote: post #501
clnq wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that calling it a "recall" emphasises the severity of the problem, which might make it easier to argue that a lot is being done for customer safety to the interested authorities. But I don't think Tesla wants this to be seen more than an OTA update from the perspective of their customers (at least those who ignore Tesla news). I had a VW car that was "recalled" shortly following the emissions scandal.…

The industry needs to come up with a new related term like "Software Recall" Recalling the hardware is a drastically more difficult request to impose on customers and financially/logistically for the car maker. That's a disporportate response just to highlight importance of an OTA update.

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