Same deal in Canada
The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
731–740 of 817 posts
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#732Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not all assets are equal. Shelter is a basic human need. Creating an environment that allows speculation in this asset is bad. Progressively tax the shit out of each subsequent property owned. Prevent foreign/corporate ownership of property outside of short stay, hotel/motel type accommodation. Make shelter an extremely unattractive asset to own. Unfortunately, many politicians across the world are also landlords.
Edit: My first paragraph conveys more frustration than perhaps I wanted, but it's what I think every time I hear this argument. I don't think "basic need" is a good argument, as many other things are basic needs but function perfectly fine in a market-based system. This perspective sounds moral, but proposes nothing to actually resolve the problem (other than to advantage a particular section of the population at the…
> Food is also a basic need, but does not get any of the attention because it is a functioning market.
We'll see how that plays out in the coming year.
Lots of revolutions in history have been triggered by unaffordability of food, and step 1 of the classic formula for keeping people happy is food ("Bread and circuses")
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#733Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I am not aware of any metropolis/capital where this isn't true, regardless of regime. Tokyo. It is hoovering up all the Japanese youth, but manages to stay affordable for other factors. - Permissive zoning - Immigration restrictions - Closed culture - Declining population
Also Bangkok, total renters market. New buildings going up every day. Lots of rents are lower than before covid.
It's been a few years but when I have been in Bangkok for a few months I just took my scooter around an area I liked and walked into good looking buildings asking for an apartment and had a monthly contract the same day.
Compared to months of planning and looking if you plan to move in an European city.
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#734Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then implement a bunch if them. Pornography is know to decrease drive. There are tax benefits that can make things happen as well. The desire to get it done just needs to emerge.
Europeans aren't having kids because they aren't having sex drive. They are having sex, just with protection, as they don't want kids, because the job and housing markets are too fucked to support a family without massive stress and anxiety for the parents. Fix those first so we can have a stable income and affordable housing from a young age, and then we'll take off the condoms.
‘Fix the housing market and we will take off the condoms’ is a great t-shirt
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#735Earlier quoted context omitted.
And the biggest reason people buy housing is that its been the best investment. The wealthiest people I know are the people that bought houses a long time back and kept leveraging up into buying more.
Equities have a higher return historically. Housing is interesting though because mortgages offer huge leverage to retail investors.
> Equities have a higher return historically
Maybe in the USA. In other countries real equity returns have been negative for decades.
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#736Earlier quoted context omitted.
But it isn't actually pricing the native population out of the country, just the most desirable cities. But, that was already happening to a huge swath of the native population beforehand by the native population, so what is different for majority of Portuguese who could never move to Lisbon or Porto? Not much. They couldn't afford to move to lisbon 20 years ago, and they can't move there now. I see the same dynamic…
Salami slicing. No single step will ever make much difference for the majority of Portuguese, until they suddenly find themselves a minority in their own capital, as happened to the English.
> until they suddenly find themselves a minority in their own capital, as happened to the English
When you say "the English" can you be more clear? Are you suggesting it's a problem if Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Irish people move to the capital of their own country, the UK? I don't think that's what you meant.
44.9% of people in London were white British according to the 2011 census, but 63% were born in Britain. The British are still a majority in London (according to the latest data). I don't think the 2021 census numbers for London by ethnicity are out yet (maybe I'm wrong).
The only way your comment makes sense is if you're suggesting it's a problem that white British being a minority is a problem.
I hope that's not what you meant to imply.
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#737Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it doesn't mean housing was laughably affordable and now isn't. I appreciate your approach, and I hadn't considered this perspective, but it still rings hollow to me: Can I purchase 1/2.6 of a house? Just because the unit cost of housing has gotten cheaper doesn't mean _owning a home_ is more affordable. Sure, I'll accept larger homes are being built at cheaper unit-cost. But those homes are still being snatched up…
You can - it's called buying a smaller house? The problem is land has gotten expensive, not so much construction. Also, regulations and the like generally raise the bar for what is considered an acceptable house, which also contributes to rising prices (eg. things like mandatory minimum parking, housing amenities, etc. Some places want to ban apartments smaller than a particular size because they are "expensive dog-b…
> You can - it's called buying a smaller house?
Not if no one is building (or selling) the smaller houses, possibly because of the reasons you give in your second paragraph.
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#738Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because no western country has tried lowering housing costs yet. And I mean actually lowering housing costs, not just talking about it on TV, posturing, political promises or making stupid mistakes like rent-freezes and such. But blaming the poor young people priced out of their own country for not breeding, and just bringing third world immigrants with no living standards, is much easier than improving the living st…
Its not just lowering housing costs. Raising a child does not just include housing cost, it also includes a ton of other costs, and since families have become nuclear and both parents work, it is hard to birth more children since cost/time that you need to spend on child rearing will be more. What is the solution to this? No idea
You mean childcare costs?
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#739What this article does not say is that the prime Minister has 6 houses... So he is benefiting from this ( https://www.cmjornal.pt/politica/detalhe/antonio-costa-tem-c... ) We are living more and more in a world where people work but are not able to live with dignity
I don't doubt it. However, the source you've chosen (Correio da Manhã) is famously untrustworthy. It's the butt of many jokes here in Portugal, being regarded as everything a news organization shouldn't be.
It was declared on his 'declaration of interests' or whatever it is called. Was also published in Eco and Publico (at least saw in these two).
And from what I remember, a lot of the politicians in the Parliament also have multiple properties, and lets not even remember the 'Rubles' case.
Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal
#740Earlier quoted context omitted.
> a west coast newspaper isn't the best source about the foreign resident situation in Portugal and where they do come from. "a west coast newspaper" should have been enough for you and anyone else looking for "a shred of evidence" that maybe there's something to this, because I would have to assume you being on HN, that you have some idea how to use a search engine. But sure, let me ddg that for you: https://www.fox…
Don't assume I don't know anyone living in Portugal, quite the contrary. Americans are not on the top 10 list of most present nationalities https://eco.sapo.pt/2022/06/23/quase-700-mil-estrangeiros-vi... Apresente fontes portuguesas sobre o assunto e a discussão será mais interessante
> They are not on the top 10 list of most present nationalities
So what? Most people don't cause any problems. It is easy to understand Brazilians, and they are working. Most of the EU and Ukrainian immigrants are working and learn the language fast. Do you know who isn't working? Do you know who refuse to learn the language? Who can't even learn to drive in roundabouts? Do you know who is paying for the big expensive houses apartments and remodelling and fancy restaurants? Do you have any idea who is pissing off the locals? Let's just narrow our search to the immigrants who bought their way here:
https://sefstat.sef.pt/Docs/Rifa2021.pdf
Scroll down to page 40 and see for yourself last year's data: there is the USA (EUA: Estados Unidos da América) right there in second place.
They're also 25% of new arrivals: https://www.dn.pt/sociedade/tempo-maximo-de-espera-no-aeropo...
Top of golden visas on the monthly data: https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/pt-pt/estatisticas-go...
And so on.
> Apresente fontes portuguesas sobre o assunto e a discussão será mais interessante
I should let you know Google Translate is worthless here because it is trained on Brazillian, and people do not talk that way here. I understand you have no idea what you're saying just fine in English, so you do not need to translate for me.