EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms • Hacker News Board

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#731

Post by Georgelemental » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 3:52 AM UTC

warning26 wrote: post #159

kinnth wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If iPhones had different app stores with 15% fees, then consumers would decide. I think the real issue here is consumers are gona get hyper confused and it wont be a better experience for anyone. Every single app creator out there will now want their own "app store" and it's going to be a mess. 30% fee initially to capture that market was what our company factored in and grew exponentially with. A 15% fee is nothing…

> Every single app creator out there will now want their own "app store" and it's going to be a mess. This is such an oft-repeated argument, yet overlooks that Android already allows sideloading and alternative app stores. If everyone-creating-their-own-app-store hasn't happened on Android, why would iOS be different?

The Play Store, as a system app, gets special privileges that user-sideloaded appstores don't, like automatic updates.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#732

Post by philliphaydon » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 3:52 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #173

philliphaydon wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This actually opens a race to be the best mobile browser, which might well see new entrants. Hahhahahhahahahaha. We will end up with chrome. And developers targeting chrome and safari users being left out because “works best in chrome for my text based website that doesn’t do anything safari can’t do”.

That's self-defeatist. You mentioned IE downthread; IE is not the dominant browser anymore, and the reason for that is not just that MS stagnated, but that it was challenged vigorously by competitors that exploited new opportunities better. This is one such opportunity.

Firefox and Opera browsers could run Google apps just fine. Remember the days when Firefox and Opera got a cut down version of gmail, but if you changed the user agent on the browser to chrome it worked just fine.

That’s how chrome became popular.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#733

Post by dwaite » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 3:54 AM UTC

xdennis wrote: post #653

n8cpdx wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is naive and assumes that there aren’t bigger, badder actors to deal with - Facebook, Google, and others can and will abuse their position. This will make the iPhone worse for everyone, especially if chrome manages a dominant position and developers can stop supporting safari. It will probably make my Mac worse, too. I still haven’t heard a single good reason why people who want sideloading can’t just use Androi…

> Hands. Off. My. iPhone. Nobody is forcing you to sideload anything. The way I see it, you enjoy a walled garden where many people are competing to provide you with apps. But they have to follow Apple's directives. The EU is also such a walled garden where companies have to follow the rules. In essence, nobody is forcing anybody. If you don't want Apple's control, buy an Android phone. If Apple doesn't like the EU's…

> Nobody is forcing you to sideload anything.

Yet.

Facebook and Google were both previously caught using enterprise certificates on iOS to ship software to consumers outside the store, that would capture network traffic destined for other sites and information on what third party native applications were run.

The problem a lot of iOS users have with offering side loading is that the store, for better or worse, is serving the role of a regulatory body saying things like 'you must get consent to track the user', or 'you must allow users to delete their account and any stored information'.

Unfortunately, the EU does not appear to be planning to add regulations to protect user privacy, nor are they properly enforcing existing regulations like GDPR.

They are really just moving power around to other large corporations - e.g. letting banks use NFC without paying Apple their 0.15% Apple Pay commission, or letting Facebook track the user in ways that Apple does not allow.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#734

Post by musicale » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 3:55 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #412

criddell wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Has there ever been a console where, over the life of the console, the hardware was sold for a loss? > All of them. Are you serious? The Wii has sold more than 100 million units over the past ten years and you think it's been a net loss for Nintendo? PS5-to-PC comparisons are hard to do in a meaningful way. It's like saying a Toyota Camry is sold at a loss because if you build one part-by-part it's going to cost $…

I mean, it's conventional wisdom that Consoles are the _poster child_ for what "Loss Leader" means. https://www.makeuseof.com/games-consoles-sold-at-loss/

Conventional wisdom is not universally accurate in this case.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#735

Post by stevewatson301 » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 3:56 AM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #543

Bud wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is "the market" going to magically provide all the substantial benefits of an Apple-run store for apps, too? No. It's not. "The market" is going to say: sorry users, fuck that, y'all can just magically research all this and provide your own security and privacy from here on out. Which is impossible, of course. Result: much poorer user experience for the vast majority of users. Which is why Apple did it their way in t…

The app store had 85B ($85,000,000,000) gross revenue in 2021. Apple made 30%. https://www.statista.com/statistics/296226/annual-apple-app-... From https://revenuesandprofits.com/how-apple-makes-money-underst... , > The devices and platforms help Apple lock-in the consumer into its ecosystem. First, Apple achieves hardware lock-in with the devices. Then, it achieves software lock-in with operating system software, ap…

As stated elsewhere on this thread, the 30% isn’t entirely going to Apple’s pockets — they have costs such as App Store bandwidth costs, support costs for purchases made, and the likes.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#736

Post by dwaite » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 3:57 AM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #616

n8cpdx wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is naive and assumes that there aren’t bigger, badder actors to deal with - Facebook, Google, and others can and will abuse their position. This will make the iPhone worse for everyone, especially if chrome manages a dominant position and developers can stop supporting safari. It will probably make my Mac worse, too. I still haven’t heard a single good reason why people who want sideloading can’t just use Androi…

> This is naive and assumes that there aren’t bigger, badder actors to deal with - Facebook, Google, and others can and will abuse their position. This will make the iPhone worse for everyone, especially if chrome manages a dominant position and developers can stop supporting safari. It will probably make my Mac worse, too. That's why we have regulation, which is quickly ("quick" in terms of legislation at least) com…

> If the only reason people use Safari today instead of another browser, is because they are forced to use Safari, even if there is a better one, isn't that kind of messed up in the first place?

The vast majority of people generally don't think a browser is 'better' outside of the chrome - tab functions, bookmark syncing, password management, etc.

IMHO when people complain about Safari, it is usually web developers who wish they could block MobileSafari and just mandate everyone use Chrome. I've certainly seen developers do that for desktop Safari (most notably Google).

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#737

Post by musicale » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:06 AM UTC

archagon wrote: post #657

quitit wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You'll simply pick Safari, never sideload an app, and pay with Apple Pay. We can coexist. This isn't even slightly realistic. It's a mistake to believe that these changes won't have run on consequences for developers. This isn't an outcome where you can have your cake and eat it too. It's not like everything will stay the same, except now developers have a bunch of extra freedoms. That exhibits no ability to think e…

Surely this logic can be extended to lock down all computing devices? Moreover, if I had the choice, I would never trust a giant multinational corporation to be the sole gatekeeper of my digital life.

> Surely this logic can be extended to lock down all computing devices?

Have you ever been asked for PC help from normal, non-technical users?

"Oh, I might have thrown that away because I needed disk space."

"I don't know, I just click OK on everything."

"I had to install Flash Player."

"I have a new taskbar that I can't get rid of."

"Oh yeah I think I had to disable antivirus to get this game to play. Now my laptop is really slow."

"I can't log in to my bank anymore."

etc.

I like the freedom of PCs, but they're not great as far as protecting you from user error, and not making mistakes requires a good deal of knowledge and concentration.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#738

Post by smoldesu » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:15 AM UTC

shapefrog wrote: post #579

smoldesu wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is possible that Apple will just pull them from the market there. It's also possible that pigs will sprout wings and fly away from manure piles everywhere. Apple is the same company that backdoored iCloud for China so they could operate domestically and make money from the CCP, though. The idea that they'd stop serving the entirety of Europe because of some evil legislation is a complete joke.

> The idea that they'd stop serving the entirety of Europe because of some evil legislation is a complete joke. I think the idea comes from a US understanding of what exists beyond the border.

You're not wrong. HN's audience is comically unaware of any population that doesn't perennially travel to Disneyland or have a history of >3 failed startups.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#739

Post by stevewatson301 » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:19 AM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #672

filoleg wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you can keep using app store, so I don't understand the issue Apps with massive following that are into the idea of violating privacy rights will leave App Store and its restrictions, and will be available only on third party app stores where they can do whatever they want. Imagine Facebook leaving App Store and becoming available only on Meta Store (or whatever they would call it). Oh, and they dont have to abide b…

I can't for the life of me figure out why everyone cites Facebook here. Nobody is forcing you to download the Facebook app. It's perfectly usable inside a web browser, nevermind the fact that a sideloaded version of Facebook could still leverage the same security benefits provided by iOS' sandboxing model. At this point you're basically arguing that Apple should be the one who dictates what privacy should look like..…

> I can't for the life of me figure out why everyone cites Facebook here.

And yet, people have a preference for installing apps, as evidenced by the populace that has the app on their phone as opposed to using m.facebook.com on their web browser.

Sure, I, an experienced user, can still make that choice, but most won’t and it’s a net negative for the common user’s privacy.

Re: EU approves legislation to regulate Apple, Google, Meta, and other tech firms

#740

Post by musicale » Wed, Jul 06, 2022, 4:20 AM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #672

filoleg wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you can keep using app store, so I don't understand the issue Apps with massive following that are into the idea of violating privacy rights will leave App Store and its restrictions, and will be available only on third party app stores where they can do whatever they want. Imagine Facebook leaving App Store and becoming available only on Meta Store (or whatever they would call it). Oh, and they dont have to abide b…

I can't for the life of me figure out why everyone cites Facebook here. Nobody is forcing you to download the Facebook app. It's perfectly usable inside a web browser, nevermind the fact that a sideloaded version of Facebook could still leverage the same security benefits provided by iOS' sandboxing model. At this point you're basically arguing that Apple should be the one who dictates what privacy should look like..…

> I can't for the life of me figure out why everyone cites Facebook here

Probably because they got caught abusing enterprise certificates to sideload a spyware app:

"Facebook has been using their membership to distribute a data-collecting app to consumers, which is a clear breach of their agreement with Apple. Any developer using their enterprise certificates to distribute apps to consumers will have their certificates revoked, which is what we did in this case to protect our users and their data."

https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/30/facebook_apple_enterp...