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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

mitadmissions.org

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#731

Post by porknubbins »

mattcwilson wrote: post #692
singlow wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your intuition allowed you to guess with a high enough success rate that it overcame the penalty then it is that intuition that gave you an advantage. You didn't just get lucky.

True, but I think the claim is also that said intiuition does not manifest in a general way when dealing with the subject matter; only on the tests. In which case it would not correlate to performance on real world outcomes.

Yes, even the most difficult standardized tests are full of artifacts just based on the fact that there is a correct answer and the test makers have a relatively narrow range of difficulty to work within. In the real world the majority of problems are either trivial or impossible and its not always obvious until you dig in which it is.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#732

Post by a-dub »

lightup wrote: post #566
gourabmi wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious. How many universities did he apply to ? How many accepts/ rejects from that pool?

He applied to [redacted] State, Rice, UNC, Duke, and U of MN - Twin Cities. Accepted at [redacted] State (they have a formula for everyone). He also got their highest out of state "scholarship" - which is more like a break on out of state tuition - no reciprocity with MN. No word from Duke yet but that probably won't happen either. Complete disaster for his future and really a shot to his otherwise happy and optimist…

> Complete disaster for his future and really a shot to his otherwise happy and optimistic life. He's really upset as are we all.

nah. if he really wants to challenge himself, he can probably get research experience pretty easily (much easier than a fancier institution) which then would set him up for a top-tier grad school or a great spot in industry. law and medicine really care about fancy brand names, but technology really only cares about accomplishment, skills, aptitude and attitude.

in my experience, most graduate TAs in STEM at fancy schools were previously superstars at state schools that didn't have crazy brand recognition.

for example: andrew grove went to the city college of new york in the 1960s, and then did a phd at uc berkeley. after that he worked in industry for a bit and then started a little company called intel.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#733

Post by nyolfen »

rayiner wrote: post #642
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

> The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture.

yeah, well so are the ivy leagues

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#734

Post by john_moscow »

lightup wrote: post #586
lightup wrote: post #553

My son found out 2 days ago he didn't get accepted to his in-state land grant public university. The University of Minnesota. This was his fall back plan. Now he's screwed and may not be able to start college in fall. His sins: - a 35 ACT score (legit with no studying or ACT prep classes) - a 3.8 weighted GPA (because he took multiple AP classes and actually was in college for his junior and senior years through Minn…

And young people on here imagine having 2 children 2 years apart. One of them doesn't get to go to college because of covid and the other doesn't get to go because ability didn't matter for a year. EDIT: I hope this never happens to your kids. Beware of being penalized for trying. Is that a lesson you will teach your kids? I'm not "bummed". Read my post with anger. U of MN was not his first choice. It was _fallback_.…

>Try on some shoes.... Imagine putting 30 years of high taxes into a state as a high earner and business owner (that's me). Then imagine that your almamater doesn't accept your kid when your kid is, in fact, a lot smarter than you and has accomplished a lot more than you did by his age.

Well, that's the whole point. The establishment doesn't want smart kids that will challenge their kids who got their papers and position through connections. They want someone who will be happy being rank-and-file for their entire life. Ideally, with no ambition to have a family and raise kids, so they can work for peanuts as well. This is frightening, but it seems to be the way America is headed.

That said, there are states that value small business owners more, and have policies aligning better with them. As the saying goes, you need to vote with your feet.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#735

Post by csee »

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #646
ecshafer wrote: post #192

College Admissions in the US is broken. This is a great move at restoring normalcy though. The SAT or ACT are the best thing for leveling the playing field between the rich and the poor. If anything I would like to see more reliance on this. If I had my way the US would model the college admissions process on the Chinese Gao Kao. Have everyone take the the exam, have students list their preference for university, the…

You wants kids to grind for an exam instead of becoming passionate about something?

This is more discriminatory though. How can a poor kid express their "passion" to University admissions offices? SATs are the best leveller we have not to mention their strong correlation with actual outcomes.

Also, passion can be developed later, you can't expect 16 year olds to know what they want to do. Recruit for high competence.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#736

Post by DownUnde »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #703
tomatowurst wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you think about people who claim standardized test is systematic racism? standardized test is the only way to measure somebody on their aptitude for doing well like the LSAT. yet somehow asian americans being discriminated at ivy leagues even with good standardized test score is not seen as systematic racism.

Many universities explicitly want policies of institutional, systemic racism. Obviously many people who are in favor of this hateful divisive racism will try to gaslight you into believing it somehow isn't racism, or try to redefine the meaning of words such that they are innocent and you are guilty. But that doesn't change what it is. So at the end of the day these institutions will bring in whatever policies they w…

When the effects of actively racist institutions and policies is not even a generation away. I Don't think leveling the field that should be level in the first place isn't racism. what is real racism to you honest question.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#737

Post by JackFr »

harry8 wrote: post #654
orzig wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of negative things that one can imply about America, so I'm surprised that you reached for 'boring'. I don't even know what source to cite, but it seems self-evident that Americans care passionately about causes besides economic efficiency, for better or worse. Trying to find some objective ground for discussion, I'll take the bait on your specific analogy: Americans are spending progressively less ti…

>Americans are spending progressively less time in shopping malls[1] and the military[2]. [1] Are Amazon, ebay et al shopping malls? Given healthcare and college tuition being paid by the state I think you might see [2] drop very, very fast and far. I've heard the argument made that this was why the establishment corrupt of Washington united so cohesively against Bernie.

> I've heard the argument made

Weasel words from which my immediate instinct is to recoil.

Do you believe the argument? Then simply make the argument.

Are you skeptical of it? Then do not repeat it.

If indeed you heard someone special make the argument, tell us who.

But saying “I’ve heard the argument made” typically means it’s your opinion and your trying to lend the argument more weight than it has.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#738

Post by delaynomore »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593
sparrc wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed. I could also buy a test prep book on amazon plus get a few others from the school and public libraries for a grand total of $15 spent on test prep. That's a lot cheaper than dedicating my working summer to smarmy volunteer/extra-curricular projects.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

>almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything.

I suspect it's more like their parents prohibit them from having any interest in these extra-curricular activities. Academics > *.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#739

Post by john_moscow »

lightup wrote: post #566
gourabmi wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious. How many universities did he apply to ? How many accepts/ rejects from that pool?

He applied to [redacted] State, Rice, UNC, Duke, and U of MN - Twin Cities. Accepted at [redacted] State (they have a formula for everyone). He also got their highest out of state "scholarship" - which is more like a break on out of state tuition - no reciprocity with MN. No word from Duke yet but that probably won't happen either. Complete disaster for his future and really a shot to his otherwise happy and optimist…

>Complete disaster for his future and really a shot to his otherwise happy and optimistic life.

It depends. Imagine what if he got accepted only to be taught that his caring father (and the sole fact of having a father) is a "privilege" he should be ashamed of. And that his way of life should be culling his ambition and letting other less fortunate ones take his place.

All of this is a part of a bigger problem (switch from results to feelings and identities), and you cannot fix the symptoms without addressing the underlying cause.

Teach your son some business skills, maybe let him work for you for a while. He can then apply again next year being a bit more cynical about optimizing the KPIs.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#740

Post by mike00632 »

Strilanc wrote: post #15

I was kind of hoping that the inline citations would lead to how they reached their conclusions. But it's just more "our research shows" conclusions without the meat underneath. Do they publish their methodology anywhere? (It's pretty funny that the first red highlight hover is explaining that you can hover over red highlights to see more information. The only people reading it are the ones who no longer need to be t…

I had the same observation. There is no data. It's nonsensical if you think about it: MIT stops using SAT/ACT in 2020 and now in March 2022 they have "robust" data that those students don't perform as well academically.
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