A generation of American men give up on college • Hacker News Board

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#731

Post by rejectedandsad » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:30 AM UTC

baron816 wrote: post #63

A lot of this is driven by narratives—A narrative that college isn’t worth it anymore. A narrative that (white) men are uniformly privileged and life is just easy for them. And a narrative that those men aren’t wanted by society any more. I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. They need to feel like they’re part of society. Nothing good can come of an entire gener…

> A narrative that (white) men are uniformly privileged and life is just easy for them. And a narrative that those men aren’t wanted by society any more.

As a brown person I think the former is definitely still true. The latter is definitely not true, at least looking at the average white man's number of tinder matches compared to mine.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#732

Post by swiley » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:40 AM UTC

version_five wrote: post #305

WalterBright wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EE programs tend to focus on electronics, not electrical systems. But learning how house wiring works is a simple book away. But be careful - unlike electronics, house electrics can kill you. On the other hand, electricians have weird gaps in their knowledge. If I ask them to do something slightly out of the ordinary, this becomes apparent. For example, none of them understand inductive coupling, or even know what it…

Your observation about gaps in knowledge is true for all trades, and is at least conceptually what separates trades or job skills training university education. A good university program teaches very few hard skills, but you learn to reason about your field essentially from first principles. On the other hand, to do a mechanical job, you really need just the job skills, and the connection to cause and effect is almos…

University is supposed to teach you fundamental ideas that help you think about the world not hard skills. That’s why it’s called a university and not a boot camp.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#733

Post by cman1444 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 4:57 AM UTC

teawrecks wrote: post #727

zepto wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you suggesting that there is something inherent about the "Portuguese, British" etc that gave them the power and influence needed to enslave other races? Of course not. No. I’m saying they made a conscious choice to enslave other races , just as abolitionists eventually made a conscious choice to oppose it. > You're saying that even though we can clearly see how past societies drew their lines when determining…

> You stop enacting race based policies, and you take steps to counteract the impacts of past racism on people in the present. But by definition, that's not what ignoring race does. > This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t acknowledge that racism was a cause. By definition, that's what "rotating the line to be orthogonal to race" does. > However black people are not the only ones who have suffered from impediments. Racism is…

"Rotating the line to be orthogonal to race" is a bit of a confusing statement, but I don't think it's fair to say that it implies not acknowledging race. What it does imply is enacting policies that are not solely based upon race.

I agree with Zepto. You can't just easily quantify the effects of all of the past injustices against different groups of people. Imagine if today the federal government decided to pay reparations for slavery. How would you decide who receives the money? Do you have to be 1/2 black? 1/4? Do you receive less money if you're less black? What about other minorities? How much are they entitled to?

It becomes messy very quickly. This is a simplified example, but this is why it's best to take enact policies that help those who struggle today regardless of their skin color, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

However, it is still important to acknowledge, teach about, and remember racism and other inequalities from years past (and some which continue today)

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#734

Post by atoav » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 5:59 AM UTC

someguydave wrote: post #426

hollerith wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pretty sure that the US graduates a larger fraction of its population from college than Germany does. At least that was true in 2012: https://www.businessinsider.com/r-us-falls-behind-in-college... (ignore the headline and go to the actual numbers)

having a degree is no guarantee that you possess employable skills. Germany is much better at shunting people away from university who are not qualified to be there. Generally, they go to trade schools and apprenticeships.

Also there is a hybrid called "Fachhochschule" which is a more practical variant of an university

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#735

Post by zepto » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 6:12 AM UTC

teawrecks wrote: post #727

zepto wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you suggesting that there is something inherent about the "Portuguese, British" etc that gave them the power and influence needed to enslave other races? Of course not. No. I’m saying they made a conscious choice to enslave other races , just as abolitionists eventually made a conscious choice to oppose it. > You're saying that even though we can clearly see how past societies drew their lines when determining…

> You stop enacting race based policies, and you take steps to counteract the impacts of past racism on people in the present. But by definition, that's not what ignoring race does. > This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t acknowledge that racism was a cause. By definition, that's what "rotating the line to be orthogonal to race" does. > However black people are not the only ones who have suffered from impediments. Racism is…

> But by definition, that's not what ignoring race does.

The only person talking about ‘ignoring race’ is you.

> This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t acknowledge that racism was a cause.

> By definition, that's what "rotating the line to be orthogonal to race" does.

No it doesn’t not ‘by definition’ or by any other reason. Your arguments don’t suddenly become true just because you say ‘by definition’.

You can acknowledge race as a cause, while not enshrining it as a solution.

Your solution requires that we must continue to be identified by the racial categories created by historical slave owners.

Not good.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#736

Post by PostThisTooFast » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 7:38 AM UTC

Maybe they're just recognizing it for the rip-off that it is.

It's time that all taxpayers do the same, and start denying these "non-profits" the free ride they've enjoyed for generations.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#737

Post by fennecfoxy » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 9:06 AM UTC

zepto wrote: post #596

“Young men get little help, in part, because schools are focused on encouraging historically underrepresented students. Jerlando Jackson, department chair, Education Leadership and Policy Analysis, at the University of Wisconsin’s School of Education, said few campuses have been willing to spend limited funds on male underachievement that would also benefit white men, risking criticism for assisting those who have hi…

>assisting those who have historically held the biggest educational advantages

History is just that: history. A white male going to uni _right now_ hasn't really enjoyed those historical advantages; they were before their time.

Yes there are other advantages in the modern world to being a white male, but there are also equivalent disadvantages, too. Easier to get power...but if you're male nobody is there to defend you or help you. Help yourself, defend yourself _and_ others, be the breadwinner (otherwise you're useless) "man up".

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#738

Post by fennecfoxy » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 9:10 AM UTC

baron816 wrote: post #63

A lot of this is driven by narratives—A narrative that college isn’t worth it anymore. A narrative that (white) men are uniformly privileged and life is just easy for them. And a narrative that those men aren’t wanted by society any more. I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. They need to feel like they’re part of society. Nothing good can come of an entire gener…

I am definitely glad to be gay. I think it allows me to see things from outside the bubble of "get a wife, be a defender, raise your children, stay strong and never cry, man up and if you can't provide, you're useless, you can't cry because men don't cry." that heterosexuality seems to favour (both men and women perpetuate this).

Men who fail to provide or "fit in" to their "role" in society become depressed, and then they kill themselves. :/

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#739

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 10:02 AM UTC

etripe wrote: post #698

webnrrd2k wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US it's usually called "half-assing it" or doing it half-assed.

It's closer in meaning to "no one really knows what they're doing". Half-assing implies lack of effort. This expression implies lack of insight or direction.

[deleted]

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#740

Post by dgb23 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 10:24 AM UTC

aksss wrote: post #700

dgb23 wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much struggled with discipline and motivation at university and eventually dropped out. It was not until I started working when I became a highly motivated self-driven learner. Now I love studying and learning (and teaching), but I do it at my own pace and I choose the things that matter for my work or are just plain fun. Looking back a decade later, it would have been very beneficial if I didn't go to univers…

My dad used to quote somebody in saying, "Education is wasted on the young". My experience sounds similar to yours. Though, when I tried to go back to school to dive in again, I found the 'system' was highly oriented towards parenting 18yo kids in all the worst ways imaginable. It was nauseating and unbearable being in that environment, and even going through the application/acceptance process (filling out pledges fo…

Structuring and _deciding_ your own learning, materials, books, projects etc. is time consuming, but it makes everything more pragmatic, focused and tailored. And over time we can leverage that skill in of itself to teach others:

Learning for people who have work experience is really different. We have context, clear goals and so on. Teaching other 'adult' students is really fun, because we get to figure out what suits them instead of trying to hit measurements predefined by some committee. Ultimately it is just about giving guidance and ideas, kind of like consulting to learn, what to learn and so on.

"Education is wasted on the young" - this was exactly my experience. I didn't know it then, but I first needed to build up confidence, make 'real' mistakes and learn from them. I was also completely unfit for the type of scheduled and predetermined learning that happens at universities. My mind wanders too much and I'm driven by answering my own questions that I feel matter or are interesting. Also a reason why I don't work in large/streamlined orgs.