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WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

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Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#731
post #636
post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix is riddled with bugs. While I agree with you that signal isn't all that great (they do some really good stuff and then make some really weird trade-offs), I've recently compared Signal, Wire, Threema, Jami, Briar, Element/Matrix, and Keybase. The most mature app is Signal. It has the best usability to privacy trade-off. Threema is the better choice if you don't mind not having a usable desktop client. For me t…

Signal will by design likely be more stable than Matrix in the short term because it is a centralized dictatorship. China can move fast for this reason too. You have to decide if the long term consequences of a fast moving dictatorship are worth giving up the freedom of a sometimes messy democracy. The internet is too important to herd all our services into control of dictators, no matter how benevolent. We survived…

That's what they want you to believe for some reason. Moxie went so far as to talk in the biggest hall at the last chaos communication congress about how important it is that we don't use decentralized services and clients.

I'm not buying it. Look at Matrix and tell me it's holding them back.

What's holding them back, perhaps, is not having a shitton of money in the bank like Signal, and they're actively supportive of decentralization which costs developer resources. Signal (or Matrix, for that matter) could not spend dev time on decentralization and just let the open source community do its thing. But that's not what Signal is doing, they're instead actively hostile towards it.

Or look at Telegram, they have an open network and third party clients. There also are unofficial clients that some people use. But what does the 99% use? The official clients. Signal's argument is that people might use insecure, unofficial clients. In practice, that's not what your average mom will do. (And it's not as if the official Signal app was audited either.)

I'm also not buying the "China can move faster" thing. They can be more oppressive without consequences, but is that really better? Does that "centralized dictatorship" allow them to be "more stable"? It's easy to say, and easy to see how indeed an oppressive government's decree can change things from one day to the next, but on that scale I think you need to consider more things than I am qualified to do before you can really say whether that is a superior system in a given situation.

I guess we conclude the same thing in the end, though, as you say "The internet is too important to herd all our services into control of dictators, no matter how benevolent."

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#732
post #583

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy pol…

As I understand it even with click thru agreement like this it is still illegal in the EU. Could be an interesting case on the way... I believe that WhatsApp only real option in this case is to stop serving the EU, which I feel as an EU residents could only be a good thing!

You could try lodging a report:

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/refo...

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#733
post #682

As others have mentioned increasingly small businesses (like my outdoor exercise class) and loose communities (like my child's school year parent's group) rely on WhatsApp. persuading these loose connections to move away from WhatsApp for one's own benefit is almost impossible. Sacrificing access to these social amenities on the altar of incremental privacy invasion and power transfer to an unaccountable basically ma…

It might be enough to use many different messaging apps in parallel. This enabled competition and a smooth transition between them. For example, I tend to slowly move from WhatsApp to Telegram as more new groups I join are created in Telegram while old groups in WhatsApp tend to get abandoned. Also, I often access these groups through opera via their API and not the native apps. This is a natural development in a mar…

Which Opera API are you talking about?

Isn't it just a wrapper for https://web.whatsapp.com/ ? I wouldn't call that an "API"

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#734

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

In France, SMS is still the most common, even though it is declining. I think it is historic: we had cheap unlimited SMS plans before internet data plans were common.

WhatsApp is popular but not a monopoly. Not really something to celebrate since its main "competitor" and #1 instant messenger app is Facebook Messenger. Skype and Discord are also significant, and I expect iMessage to be important too.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#735
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their infra is generating those encryption certificates, so WhatsApp can very well decode the message and store it for further processing. This is incorrect. The sender's device generates the key with which it encrypts outgoing messages. WhatsApp's infra cannot see the content of any messages sent. (Source: ex-WhatsApp employee)

Encryption is useless is the remote party can silently rekey and be re-authenticated as legitimate silently. WhatsApp could almost certainly perform active MITM

There's a configuration option you can enable which shows a message whenever the remote party changes their key (usually meaning they bought a new phone, in my limited experience), so it's not that silent. Yes, it's unfortunate that on WhatsApp this option defaults to disabled (to not confuse the newbies?), while on Signal (which uses the same protocol) this options defaults to enabled.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#736
post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it won't impact people who don't have an FB account?

I think everybody has a (shadow) FB account. FB collects your data and connects it to other data even if you never registered.

How, apart from whatsapp, would it collect your data? The only social account(s) I have are on reddit.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#737

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

Not possible? I think you mean that it's painful.

And it is, and I sympathize, but you and your family will not die or starve. It's possible.

I'm fed up an will remove fb and wa from my phone, at least. It will be painful

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#738
post #713

It's harder for US folks to understand just how much of a monopoly WhatsApp has in Europe and the UK. Pretty much all of our school and local community communication happens via WhatsApp. I'd change to Signal or Telegram in a heartbeat, but the inertia is so great it's not possible. It pains me to say, but we're getting to the point where companies like Twitter, Facebook and Google need to be treated like utilities o…

I am in europe, switzerland and plenty of friends in austria. Yes many of my social circle have whatsapp but none is using it exclusively as it was some years ago. People have the choice and use it. Not sure what is holding other circles back? I havent had whatsapp in 4+ years and only rarely have to fall back to SMS

Do you have kids? What do they use?

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#739
post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matrix is riddled with bugs. While I agree with you that signal isn't all that great (they do some really good stuff and then make some really weird trade-offs), I've recently compared Signal, Wire, Threema, Jami, Briar, Element/Matrix, and Keybase. The most mature app is Signal. It has the best usability to privacy trade-off. Threema is the better choice if you don't mind not having a usable desktop client. For me t…

For a family that are all on the same server, Nextcloud Talk is also nice and "relatively easy" to set up (and 0 effort when you already use Nextcloud). I am still desperately waiting on Talk being able to use the federation features of Nextcloud (so you can chat to users on other servers). That would increase my usage a lot, my parents are on another server (which admittedly also runs from my basement) and I have co…

As someone who doesn't use WhatsApp, thanks for mentioning WA and Signal are not very different and that Telegram has better UX. That matches what I thought, but I didn't know and I was a bit worried what I'd be signing my family up for when asking them to switch away from Telegram.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#740
post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their infra is generating those encryption certificates, so WhatsApp can very well decode the message and store it for further processing. This is incorrect. The sender's device generates the key with which it encrypts outgoing messages. WhatsApp's infra cannot see the content of any messages sent. (Source: ex-WhatsApp employee)

How can you guarantee this? And how about received messages? How can you retrieve all your old messages/conversations when you install the app on a new device? Don't they come from WhatsApp servers? Just curious, not doubting that you are actually an ex-WhatsApp employee.

> How can you guarantee this?

I mean, I can't guarantee it. As others have said, it's not impossible that things have changed since I left or will change in the future. But I doubt it — e2e encryption is a big selling point for WA and something that is dear to the company's heart.

> And how about received messages?

It's the same deal — the sender encrypts the message with the the recipient's public key, and the recipient decrypts it with their private key (which was generated locally and never goes over the network).

> How can you retrieve all your old messages/conversations when you install the app on a new device? Don't they come from WhatsApp servers?

No, you can only get old messages from your old device or from a backup that went to the cloud somewhere (e.g. iCloud or Google backup). The messages on your phone are stored locally in a DB, so if you copy that DB to a new phone it'll have the new messages. WhatsApp doesn't store messages — they are only present on WA infra until acknowledged as received by the destination.

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