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EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

statewatch.org

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Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#731

Post by mswann »

aflag wrote: post #430
mbf1 wrote: post #425

If the government can break encryption, so can hackers. If hackers can break your encryption, and my records are being held in it, then your competition will eat your lunch as I move my records to their services. Either my data is safe from rogue agents and rogue governments or it is not. If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will use it. The EU can make as many logical conclusions it wants to, but reality will com…

It's not really true that everyone committing a crime will use cryptography. Most people (including criminals) do not care or think about cryptography that much, but the providers of the services and devices they use to commit crimes do think about it. In that way, lawful service providers help haphazard criminals cover their tracks. I believe the idea is to change that, so that lawful service providers will not prov…

Creating a firewall akin to China's is actually seriously considered by the EU [1].

[1] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2020/6487... (Page 37, section 5.1 "European Cloud / European Internet")

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#732

Post by romanoderoma »

ben_w wrote: post #562
notreallytrue wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hyperbolic How many countries NK invaded? How many coup d'état that established long and painful military dictatorships around the World it supported and/or financed? At least nobody calls NK the greatest democracy and country in the world or the land of the free...

On the other hand, how many styles of haircut are you legally allowed in the USA? Can you leave if you want to? Can you criticise the government without you and your family being shot? Never mind Apples and Oranges, you’re comparing a rabid kitten (NK: you don’t want to be a cell inside it, but the animal is containable) with a healthy chimpanzee in the jungle you’re walking though (USA: violent and acts like it owns…

Good answer, but hyronically in USA you have 6 chances in 100 thousands to be murdered, in NK it's 6 in a million.

Looks like the chimpanzee cells are not safer after all.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#733

Post by ben_w »

romanoderoma wrote: post #732
ben_w wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, how many styles of haircut are you legally allowed in the USA? Can you leave if you want to? Can you criticise the government without you and your family being shot? Never mind Apples and Oranges, you’re comparing a rabid kitten (NK: you don’t want to be a cell inside it, but the animal is containable) with a healthy chimpanzee in the jungle you’re walking though (USA: violent and acts like it owns…

Good answer, but hyronically in USA you have 6 chances in 100 thousands to be murdered, in NK it's 6 in a million. Looks like the chimpanzee cells are not safer after all.

What’s your source? Wikipedia puts their intentional homicide rates at 4.96 and 4.40 per 100k respectively.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#734

Post by learnstats2 »

dane-pgp wrote: post #657
learnstats2 wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter-example in the UK: where the method of voting is walking into a room with your chums, MPs sometimes have to say that they "accidentally" walked into the wrong room: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-16746389 It's clear your example that they (Swedish MEPs) were all agreed to vote in this direction, since they each press their own button. It's most likely that they didn't understand the significance of the…

I'm not sure if that UK counter-example is as strong as you suggest: > A spokesman for Mr Stunell, MP for Hazel Grove, said he had voted against the Labour amendment "as he was supposed to" and had gone to get a drink of water for a fellow minister when he found that lobby doors had been "locked". > "He was temporarily on the wrong side but sanity prevailed and they let him out," he said. A funny story, but not a leg…

Here's another funny example where a UK MP was not able to vote the way they intended: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/snp-mp-locked...

Here, it's suggested that MPs sometimes vote both ways to cancel their own mistake out, although they normally claim that they are taking some nuanced view: https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/boths.php

Not to mention that UK MPs can't vote if they have to be absent for any reason - for example if they have child-care duties.

Your original point was that the UK Commons' system of slow voting is foolproof: it isn't.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#735

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

nitrogen wrote: post #712
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would bet basically anything that inferring "did commit" from "is suspect" works very well in aggregate.

This doesn't work numerically if each crime averages more than one suspect.

This is a good point! I wonder how often that's the case...

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#736

Post by NoImmatureAdHom »

jordanbeiber wrote: post #716
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're on the mark talking about them as toys for adults. I don't think most people want them because they really fear for their safety without, though the ability to defend oneself may be a bonus. My feeling is mostly it's just a fun hobby and it's also a clear signal of group membership. I think your claim about there being a higher chance of accidental injury vs. self defense is probably wrong. The issue i…

You might be right about the injury thing. I still believe many people see guns as a solution to a problem and on top of that vastly overrate their own abilities in a pressure situation. If you’ve not trained many many hours in a setting resembling this pressure to a high degree you really have no idea how you’ll react. It seems really easy in movies! Can’t speak for the source but first hit on google: http://feature…

Agree that serious training seems necessary.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#737

Post by dane-pgp »

learnstats2 wrote: post #734
dane-pgp wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if that UK counter-example is as strong as you suggest: > A spokesman for Mr Stunell, MP for Hazel Grove, said he had voted against the Labour amendment "as he was supposed to" and had gone to get a drink of water for a fellow minister when he found that lobby doors had been "locked". > "He was temporarily on the wrong side but sanity prevailed and they let him out," he said. A funny story, but not a leg…

Here's another funny example where a UK MP was not able to vote the way they intended: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/snp-mp-locked... Here, it's suggested that MPs sometimes vote both ways to cancel their own mistake out, although they normally claim that they are taking some nuanced view: https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/boths.php Not to mention that UK MPs can't vote if they have to be absent for any…

I don't think I claimed that the UK's system was "foolproof", my point was just that trying to make it faster likely wouldn't make it any better.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#738

Post by agensaequivocum »

nitrogen wrote: post #710
KMag wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent over 30 years in the U.S., mostly in the upper Midwest, and the only gun advertisements I remember seeing were in sporting magazines or in sporting goods stores. I think your perceptions of U.S. gun advertising is either greatly exaggerated, or your experience is from a very different part of the country. Maybe things have changed drastically in the 8 years since I left, but I doubt it.

Maybe things have changed drastically in the 8 years since I left, but I doubt it. I think they have. I've also seen more gun stores opening, with provocative names. I've no problem with firearms used responsibly for hunting or recreation, but in the very few cases I've seen someone open carrying a handgun (once at a very crowded national park, and once at a residential picnic area, both just this year) it was clear…

> but to threaten others.

No. I've open carried. We do not do it to threaten people. There are many reasons to one chooses to open or conceal carry.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#739

Post by agensaequivocum »

freeflight wrote: post #714
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying Switzerland has "vastly" stricter gun laws /might/ be true if mushing the U.S. into a whole, but it ignores the very important variations at the state level. Some states have very strict regimes that compare to Switzerland's, and in some you can just walk into a store and buy long guns if you're of age. I totally agree about the responsibility thing. Concerning the "dog shoots owner" headlines, you should igno…

> Some states have very strict regimes that compare to Switzerland's, and in some you can just walk into a store and buy long guns if you're of age. Which is exactly why the regulation in the US does not work; Anybody who disagrees with their states particular laws can just cross into another state to get their fix there. That why any proper regulation needs to happen on a federal level so individual states won't act…

> Anybody who disagrees with their states particular laws can just cross into another state to get their fix there.

If you mean purchase something you cannot buy in your state, that's not true. Interstate handgun purchases are completely banned and long guns can only be sold if the sale complies with both state laws.

Re: EU Draft Council Declaration Against Encryption [pdf]

#740

Post by agensaequivocum »

jordanbeiber wrote: post #544
freeflight wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Switzerland and several other Eurpean countries have very high rates of gun ownership, but low rates of gun violence. They also have vastly stricter gun regulation laws, and while ownership rates are high in some, the US is an extreme outlier and no other country comes even close. Because nobody in any European country thinks they have a "right" to own a gun, most of them could if they wanted to, but they simply do…

The fact so many people feel they need a gun for safety is the first and biggest issue IMO. This is fueled by movies and culture - have the gun in your possession and you’ll automatically win the fight - that was easy! I’ve read countless comments from Americans that they have a gun to shoot intruders. Statistics telling you there’s a bigger chance someone else will get hurt be damned. These ideas are have to be fuel…

> This is fueled by movies and culture - have the gun in your possession and you’ll automatically win the fight

No. It's not automatic. But my wife has a much better chance against a 250lb 6ft man with one than without one.

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