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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

lore.kernel.org

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who has been lynched because of a Contributor Covenant, or other similar open-source code of conduct? The scope of the Contributor Covenant was widened in an attempt to l̶y̶n̶c̶h̶ harass and ban Elia Schito for an opinion he had expressed on his personal twitter[1]. Because Elia's twitter conversation wasn't connected with the project (beyond the project being listed in his bio), a new clause needed to be added to…

And this is how that creator is reacting to Linux's merging their CoC based on the CC: http://archive.is/6AyZy

"I can't wait for the mass exodus from Linux now that it's been infiltrated by SJWs. Hahahah"

Poe's law in effect?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#732
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") For what it's worth, he doesn't even avoid breaking userland. Off the top of my head, we had a problem at work a few months back where kernel 4.3 and below rounded up listen(fd, 0) to something nonzero, kernel 4.4 didn't, and a piece of commercial software was (inexplicably) using listen(fd, 0). https://ldpreload.com/blog/git-bisect…

> "we do not break userland, period" That quote is more accurately read as, "we change things all the time, including user-visible features, and very occasionally, even in breaking ways -- but only because it's impossible to know every single consumer of every single quirk in behavior, and as soon as we learn that one of our changes did in fact break userspace, then we'll change it back". It's how the kernel communit…

No offense but this seems like blinding fanaticism for a man who is, admitedly right 99.99999% of the other time, not perfect.

In this case however you are arguing that when he said, "we don't break userland, period" he instead meant the opposite? There was no asterix on his statement saying to read the fine print.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#733
post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is anyone really rallied to the cause by Linus himself? I think the product is the only real draw. With the exception of a select few that simply want to work with someone as high profile and legendary as Linus.

Absolutely. A big part of the problem with many projects, or even companies, is that leadership is too soft and so you end up surrounded by incompetent individuals who either through delusion, or Dunning Kruger, have difficulty assessing their own ability. This results in incredibly inefficient and 'noisy' (as in signal:noise ratio) working environments. 'Hard' leadership gets rid of the slack and is willing to tell…

There are plenty of examples of great leaders who were direct, driven, and hard, yet still treated people with respect. It's not an easy trick to pull of, which is why people like Steve Jobs just said fuck it.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#734
post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I received a master's degree from an art program in which the (male) professors had a great deal of license to performatively take down students, from the initial admissions interview through two years of group critiques. It wasn't unusual for a professor to reduce students to tears. Graduates of the program brought this culture to their own teaching. Recently I worked at a school whose critiques were set up explicit…

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that "tearing someone's work apart" doesn't require "tearing the person apart / humiliating them"... and I suspect it's the former rather than the latter which is, in the right contexts, useful in learning / improvement.

Well said. You can tear the work apart if needed but don't get personal. Ever.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#735
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

I've always assumed that when he really goes after someone it was him blowing off steam to maintain his own mental health rather than trying to put on a show. He's been managing a pile of complexity for over two decades that would have crushed most of us long ago. If it has been even moderately for show then sure, he should work on dialing it back (just a bit... i.e. short of getting personal).

Yeah, Linus is the classic heroe with the weight of the world on his shoulders.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it will, but if people are claiming it will get better then that should be treated as a falsifiable belief rather than as a truthclaim.

Sure, but every study i've ever read currently backs it. If you are aware of any that say "very smart assholes make organizations better in the long run" or even "very smart assholes don't meaningfully hurt them in the long run", i'd actually love to see it! (I hold the position i do precisely because it's backed by research, not just my own random thoughts and experiences)

Strong-personality-assholes have been making successful things for a very long time now (Linus, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, come to mind).

It's probably not that being an asshole is good. It's that if you are a genius/visionary and nice, your genius gets diluted by the people around you. Let's build a genius/asshole map:

1. Genius, non-asshole: You start a genius-level thing, it is brilliant and awesome. As it progresses, less brilliant people get involved. They start wanting power and influence. You know that the things they want to do kind of suck, but you're too nice to tell them that. Over time, they ascend to positions of power, because you, out of niceness, allow them to, and your thing descends into mediocrity.

2. Non-genius, asshole: You're just mean to everyone. If you start any sort of thing at all, it goes nowhere, because it's not very good, and nobody wants to work with you.

3. Non-genius, non-asshole: You're nice, but so are lots of people. This goes nowhere.

4. Genius, asshole: You start a brilliant thing, because you're brilliant. You're mean to people who deliver anything but the absolute best results. So who stays with you? People who always deliver the best results, or, alternatively, people so enamored with your genius or the thing you've created that they're willing to tolerate it. Congratulations, you've managed to filter your underlings to only the best and most passionate people - you have a high probability of achieving something great.

Note that this is not an endorsement of this behavior. Just an attempt at explaining why it is that these types of personalities seem so common among highly successful people.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

You don't need to actually be in Linus' situation to have a reasonable opinion about how to communicate with people you're collaborating with.

That's right. The standards of human decency don't change for people in leadership positions. What Linus seems to have is some self awareness, which will serve him well in tapping the brakes on his assholish tendencies.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#738
post #625

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

In an ideal world these people would all be persistent without being an asshole but I do honestly feel like contributors (whether employees or volunteers) need to handle being yelled at. Even the nicest people can appear to be assholes when you're not expecting a "no."

Pointed cricitism does have value but its value isn't increased by yelling.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones. Don't hold back, but be very supportive and positive when more than two people present. I try to explain this to be people I work with, but I don't think everyone appreciates it. Horrible people, in my opinion, are those that do the opposite.

You can be direct without being brutal. Any variant that invites perspective sharing rather than brutality works fine to accomplish almost any direct feedback. (IE brutality usually does not admit the possibility others may have a different perspective. You are going to get a lot farther in changing/helping people if you listen to their perspective instead of just yours)

Brutal ultimately undermines because it'll eventually push key people out.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#740
post #142

I'm probably going to be alone in saying so, but I always enjoyed Linus and his attitude. (to me) it made him appear honest and dedicated to (his own) goals, and I always felt like that was respectable. (mostly) whenever he was proven technically wrong about how to do something he would concede to the technically better solution, and if he didn't do so he gave reasons for his conclusion. in other words : his technica…

It's easy to enjoy a spectacle like that from the stands but if you had a boss like that you'd be a nervous wreck. Linus realizes that his behavior's far from optimal, though changing isn't easy as we all know.
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