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Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

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Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#731

Post by shawabawa3 »

corney91 wrote: post #697
maxxxxx wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving. The driver has to detect automation failures after they occur, but before a crash. This requires faster reaction time than merely avoiding obstacles." I have been thinking that too. At what point do you decide that the autopilot is making a mistake and take over? That's an almost impossible task to perform within the available time.

If I was driving a car like that I think I'd feel safer if there was a "confidence meter" available, I have no idea about how these auto-drive systems work but I'm guessing there's some metric for how confident the car is that it's going in the correct direction. Exposing that information as a basic percentage meter on the dash somewhere would make me feel more confident about using the auto-drive. I can understand w…

If they had the ability to measure confidence in the system, they would use it to issue warnings or disable autopilot

The "confidence meter" would almost certainly be 100% right up until it crashes into an obvious obstacle

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#732

Post by aninhumer »

product50 wrote: post #704
eh78ssxv2f wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, comparison with airplanes is not fair in my opinion. The purpose of the autopilot is to increase safety for drivers that are not attentive. However, it turns out that Tesla requires drivers to be even more attentive than regular vehicles. This is not a sign of progression.

Not true in my opinion. While for now the positioning of autopilot is to increase safety for non attentive drivers, eventually autopilot's main goal is to have completely self driven cars and that is where the industry is heading (and Tesla wants to be in the forefronts of it). We can differ in opinions but I strongly feel that the eventual utopia of self driving cars will be much safer than the current world. And we…

I'm not really sure what the eventual safety of self-driving cars has to do with Telsa providing an unsafe system right now.

Unless you're suggesting that Tesla is justified in actively making people less safe because it helps them develop self-driving technology faster?

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#733

Post by Asooka »

Robotbeat wrote: post #166
arh68 wrote: post #153

Insurance rates will probably go up on "self-crashing cars" if this trend continues. For some reason, people aren't dying so dramatically due to cruise control. I love cruise control, because it helps me focus on "driving" (which I consider steering + observing). The Tesla autopilot feature seems to do the opposite: it helps you focus on not driving . This ain't Volvo, folks.

Cruise control DOES cause deaths: http://www.indianainjury.com/trucking-accident-verdict-leads... ...but it's not Tesla, so a single death isn't plastered over every news site and discussed ad nauseum by tech sites. EDIT: More cruise control deaths: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/24/skoda-drive... https://www.levylaw.com/cruise-control-accidents-defective-p... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5645195/m1-m…

The difference is those were caused by a malfunctioning cruise control, or by cruising at an unsafe speed. The Tesla self-driving software always veers towards the barrier in those conditions without suffering a hardware or software malfunction.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#734

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

Animats wrote: post #552

Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving. The driver has to detect automation failures after they occur, but before a crash. This requires faster reaction time than merely avoiding obstacles. Here's a good example - a Tesla on autopilot crashing into a temporary road barrier which required a lane change.[1] This is a view from the dashcam of the vehicle behind the Tesla. At 00:21, things look norm…

>> Automatic driving the Waymo way seems to be working. Automatic driving the Tesla way leaves a trail of blood and death.

If memory serves, Waymo's way seems to be summarised by the sentence "driver assist which we can have right now is inherently dangerous so let's go for full autonomy which we can't have for many years still".

A more accurate comparison of the two companies then might be that they are both trying to sell technology that they don't yet have (autonomous driving) and that only one of them is at least trying to develop (Waymo).

However, it should be absolutely clear that autonomous driving is currently only a promise and that this is true for every product being developed.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#735

Post by amelius »

maxxxxx wrote: post #554
Animats wrote: post #552

Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving. The driver has to detect automation failures after they occur, but before a crash. This requires faster reaction time than merely avoiding obstacles. Here's a good example - a Tesla on autopilot crashing into a temporary road barrier which required a lane change.[1] This is a view from the dashcam of the vehicle behind the Tesla. At 00:21, things look norm…

" Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving. The driver has to detect automation failures after they occur, but before a crash. This requires faster reaction time than merely avoiding obstacles." I have been thinking that too. At what point do you decide that the autopilot is making a mistake and take over? That's an almost impossible task to perform within the available time.

It's a lot like sitting in the passenger seat next to a driver who suddenly turns out to be having a stroke. At what point do you grab the wheel? Clearly, it's a very dangerous situation that you don't want to happen, and certainly not on a regular basis.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#736

Post by akvadrako »

rohit2412 wrote: post #170
darkstar999 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same reason cruise control is allowed.

I think the solution is to hold Elon Musk/Tesla liable for their misleading statements on FSD, Tesla Network, AP2 and their timelines about future capability. Future promises if made should come with renaming the product to highlight its capabilities.

That's potentially very complicated. As long as drivers are required to purchase insurance and insurance is required to pay out fair sums for accidental death, the accountability should come automatically in the form of higher rates.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#737

Post by corney91 »

serpix wrote: post #729
corney91 wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was driving a car like that I think I'd feel safer if there was a "confidence meter" available, I have no idea about how these auto-drive systems work but I'm guessing there's some metric for how confident the car is that it's going in the correct direction. Exposing that information as a basic percentage meter on the dash somewhere would make me feel more confident about using the auto-drive. I can understand w…

On top of all that is going on in traffic you would add interpreting one more abstracted symbol to your cognitive load? The situation can change in milliseconds during driving, you can never ever be entirely sure nothing unexpected could happen. Personally having tried Tesla AP1 iit was painfully clear I can never fully trust any assisted driving aid, they can fail at any point and I need to be ready to take over imm…

> On top of all that is going on in traffic you would add interpreting one more abstracted symbol to your cognitive load?

I think I'd find it a simpler metric to follow than the more qualitative information about car behaviour, as well as more useful to decide whether the car or I should be in control.

You're quite right about timing, I have no idea whether this metric would plummet quickly or gracefully drop so the driver would have time to take charge once a threshold was hit.

I want to stress that this is an underbaked idea and really just a thought experiment about what would make me personally feel more comfortable with driving a semi-autonomous vehicle.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#738

Post by bigmanwalter »

corney91 wrote: post #697
maxxxxx wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving. The driver has to detect automation failures after they occur, but before a crash. This requires faster reaction time than merely avoiding obstacles." I have been thinking that too. At what point do you decide that the autopilot is making a mistake and take over? That's an almost impossible task to perform within the available time.

If I was driving a car like that I think I'd feel safer if there was a "confidence meter" available, I have no idea about how these auto-drive systems work but I'm guessing there's some metric for how confident the car is that it's going in the correct direction. Exposing that information as a basic percentage meter on the dash somewhere would make me feel more confident about using the auto-drive. I can understand w…

Confidence can flatline in a matter of seconds. It would not likely help all that much.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#739

Post by CaptainZapp »

PunchTornado wrote: post #190
txcwpalpha wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is irrelevant. Before his death, Tesla told the driver that there was no issue with the autopilot feature. This likely contributed to his continued use of the feature. That feature, because of the same issue (which Tesla denied existed) killed him. And now Tesla is saying that there is an issue, and that it's his fault for using the system. Whether or not it's a full self-driving mode, or if it's an assisted aut…

It's a feature that is in development and you can not use it if you don't want to. Everybody knows ad is alerted by the fact that self driving technology is not there yet. The driver knew that.

Then why on earth does Tesla refer to it as autopilot ?

Words have consequences and in this case deadly consequences.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#740

Post by CaptainZapp »

greglindahl wrote: post #612
txcwpalpha wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's how every car on the road works today. The liability is on the user to operate it properly. No, it is not. No other car on the market today actively steers you toward an obstacle. Every non-autopilot car would require the driver (or another human actor, such as another driver) to first put themselves in a dangerous situation before requiring they get themselves out of it. Tesla autopilot, on the other hand, p…

Er, no, there are other cars that steer. All of them are level 2 systems that could steer you wrong.

And which manufacturer actually refers to it as autopilot?

I can only name one.

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