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James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

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Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#731

Post by manigandham »

hypersoar wrote: post #657
manigandham wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't miss that point, it was clearly stated as fighting subjective bias and making sure there is equal opportunity. Measuring performance is pretty objective, but yes it should also constantly be improved. That has nothing to do with diversity based on appearance nor will those policies help.

Which policies don't help? There have been a broad array of diversity policies attempted over the years. Do you have any evidence suggesting that they all fail? Here's [1] an overview of a bunch of programs. It includes data on how they've affected employee composition and discusses why certain things fail or succeed. The first success it cites is voluntary diversity training. The sort Google has. The sort that James…

Policies to force diversity based on outward appearance and other unchangeable and meaningless physical traits do not help.

As said before: remove any selection bias, then hire those who can do the work, want to do the work, and have shown to do the work well before. Then measure performance and promote using the same objective processes. That's it.

Perhaps we can boil down the issue as the difference between making hiring as fair as possible, or making hiring ensure a certain outcome. The first option is good since it produces fair results, but the latter is actually what's happening in most places.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#732

Post by muninn_ »

propman wrote: post #346
perseusprime11 wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never knew joe organ was right wing. I've been listening to his podcasts which seem pretty good.

He's not "right wing". Hating SJWs and the extreme left isn't right wing. People are complicated and labeling someone as right wing to invalidate someone's every position is as bad as what the right does to the left. He is if anything fairly moderate with a slight libertarian streak, especially when it comes to drugs. I don't agree with lots of his positions and he's definitely not some really smart guru, but I like…

> That said, I do find many of his guests abhorant and just skip a fair bit of his podcasts.

So please don't take this in a way that means I'm bashing you or anything of the sort. I loved your post, but I do take issue with this particular comment from an otherwise interesting and thoughtful response.

This mindset, unfortunately, is very reminiscent of an echo chamber. "I don't like this person or what I think they have to say so I'm not even going to hear them". While I of course don't think you should be forced to listen to something uninteresting, it would be great if we all spent more time listening to people we can't stand or ideas that we find abhorrent so that we can gain better perspective and empathy of our fellow people.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#733

Post by flukus »

bertil wrote: post #490
dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

Stupid question, just to get a sense of the context of your testimony: are you working for Google or a similarly prestigious organisation? I can certainly expect “a "Software Engineer" who can't write a SQL statement” in some of the company I worked for a decade ago but I’d be confused to see those at Google. I saw one at Facebook (middle-aged white male) but he left the company after ten days and anyone’s reaction w…

Wouldn't it be more expected at google? I didn't think they had a lot of traditional databases, so it's not a relevant skill for them. They've also got a fair few low level guys working in c and the like that I wouldn't expect to know much about sql.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#734

Post by hypersoar »

manigandham wrote: post #731
hypersoar wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which policies don't help? There have been a broad array of diversity policies attempted over the years. Do you have any evidence suggesting that they all fail? Here's [1] an overview of a bunch of programs. It includes data on how they've affected employee composition and discusses why certain things fail or succeed. The first success it cites is voluntary diversity training. The sort Google has. The sort that James…

Policies to force diversity based on outward appearance and other unchangeable and meaningless physical traits do not help. As said before: remove any selection bias, then hire those who can do the work, want to do the work, and have shown to do the work well before. Then measure performance and promote using the same objective processes. That's it. Perhaps we can boil down the issue as the difference between making…

They don't help what? You haven't really responded to my point. And how to you plan to "remove any selection bias"? These efforts are there to counteract the selection bias that already exists. You say we should make hiring as fair as possible, but that, right there, is a big part of the goal of diversity policies.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#735

Post by s73ver_ »

maoistinquisitr wrote: post #676
jacksmith21006 wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with being right or left. It is simply a human decency thing. A manager and company is responsible for everyone and after he shared such views with his name you could never keep him and have him working along side women. Google did exactly what they had to do. It is not complicated.

This is the heckler's veto. Free speech is a cultural matter, not just a protection from the federal and state governments.

But now you're getting into the "free speech for me, not for thee" part. You're basically saying that Damore is entitled to free speech and protection, but that Google and his former co-workers are not. Remember, who you work with is part of the freedom of association which is a component of free speech.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#736

Post by DuskStar »

dqv wrote: post #523
DuskStar wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best response to this that I've read, at least in my opinion, was SSC's "Contra Grant On Exaggerated Differences"[0]. The key point is that differences between the genders do exist, though they tend to be differences in interest rather than capability. And even small differences in interest can cascade through the selection effects of our educational systems. [0] http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-…

The article has Professor Grant himself (the guy who is cited in all of these discussions) rebutting what Scott wrote in the blog post. It's well worth the read.

Which article? Not the feature from TC, I'd presume. If there's a good rebuttal to what Scott wrote out there, I'd love to read it!

There's Grant's response added by Scott to the comments [0], but I don't think that really qualifies as a rebuttal.

[0] http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#737

Post by 0xWilliam »

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

>As far as his "conservative white male" discrimination claims, I've seen that too. My boss specifically requested candidates that are not middle-aged white males. But it's nowhere near the same level of discrimination that people of color or women have endured for decades. Perhaps the reason people don't feel sorry for conservative white males is that if they are rejected by one company they can keep trying and will find an "old school" company that will hire them. We have not had that luxury, for blacks and women it was 100 nos for every 1 yes. It's not that way for white guys, sorry.

Its not that way for white guys to receive hundreds of Nos?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#738

Post by stcredzero »

d1zzy wrote: post #492
dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

There can be positives of hiring to increase diversity which aren't related strictly to their performance in the role they occupy. Two such arguments for this kind of policies: - by giving them jobs which they wouldn't otherwise have the skills to fill you are trying to break the "cycle" (more on that below) - having different viewpoints in a team can be beneficial beyond the skill set those people should bring accor…

have the benefit that now those people get included in a social environment that they would normally be cut out from, get payed more than they would otherwise and, hopefully, this will trickle down to their children and grandchildren

Irish immigrants started out from a culture, where the typical peasant was 1/2 to 1/4th as wealthy as the median pre-Civil War American Slave. There was a period of time when ethnic Irish political machines helped to place the party faithful into cozy government jobs. This was beneficial, up to a point. However, there is a point where such subgroup politics becomes so corrupt, the leaders of that group keep their people in deliberate isolation to maintain their power.

The IQs of many ethnic immigrant groups to the US can be shown to have increased after several generations. The Polish and Italian immigrant groups' IQs increased from 85 to over 100 over the 1st half of the 20th century. There seems to have been a reversal of such trends for African American communities starting in the 60's. There are also studies of the African American children of US armed forces personnel in Germany. Their IQs are the same as other children growing up in Germany. My conclusion is that the leadership of the African American community and the influence of the US political Left, by glorifying a toxic subset of their ethnic culture, is holding the group back, in cultural isolation, in such a way as to harm the prospects of their children as strongly as lead in the water of Flint Michigan.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#739

Post by chillacy »

OCASM wrote: post #692
lurr wrote: post #470

I wonder how much evidence google has of people who were pissed off by Damore's memo. Cause really, that's all it should take. "He made his continued employment here impossible because he pissed off his coworkers". Sounds like a completely valid reason to fire me.

Is Damore responsible for the failure of some of people in managing their own emotions? "He's saying things we don't like! Fire him!" That doesn't seem valid to me.

> Is Damore responsible for the failure of some of people in managing their own emotions?

That line of stoic reasoning really justifies anything though. Like, my co-workers should manage their anxiety just because I like to work with a firearm strapped to my chest and 2 grenades on my desk.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#740

Post by bargl »

paulgb wrote: post #18
Veen wrote: post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

Is the quote you pulled not saying the same thing as this from Damore's memo? > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Edit: ebbv beat me to it

What's happening is that the news outlet here is keying in on the word abilities and not the word preferences.

I think many women have preferences that steer them away from engineering, this may be societal or genetic in nature but that's something that is being debated at this point.

I think saying his use of the word abilities is what gets him in a lot of trouble here.

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