Why We Terminated Daily Stormer • Hacker News Board

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#731

Post by anc84 » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:22 AM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #265

colllectorof wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The idea that companies like Cloudflare should help support sites like this is nonsensical. It is your framing of the idea that's nonsensical. Infrastructure companies should not need to police all their services. Heck, they shouldn't police their services. That is what real police and courts are for. As an analogy, should AT&T monitor calls and terminate service for customers using racist slurs? Now, a lot of peopl…

AT&T had common carrier status which indemnifies them against what subscribers did but that came at the cost of a lot of government oversight on what they could do in return. Lots of private companies wouldn't want that (and AT&T butted heads over it). Personally I think Facebook is already over that line, when you have the eyeballs of about 1/7th of the planet you are already a potential threat that should have gove…

And Cloudflare say they handle 10% of internet traffic. They are a behemoth just like Facebook.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#732

Post by thinkfurther » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:23 AM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #702

ajuc wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ " Calling for persecution of literal inciting of violence is hardly a "extremist left" idea. In fact it's not even left-or-right issue.

Inciting violence is already illegal and no one is defending it.

Just like the right to free speech is useless without a spirit of tolerance in the population, the same goes for inciting violence being illegal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/charlottesv...

Why does this story about CF dropping the Daily Stormer have not simply one comment saying "Good."? Why is there even a discussion? No one is defending it explicitly, but many do implicitly.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#733

Post by thinkfurther » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:26 AM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #715

camillomiller wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to your own ideas is not an absolute. It's a pact you have to respect and it involves respecting other people rights first. Neonazi and white supremacist are betraying this social pact by furthering the idea of a superior race and the extermination of the different, that's why they're walking a really thin line when it comes to their right to First Amendment protection. You just resorted to what I call "the…

All political ideologues think their opposition wants to take away their freedoms. If you make the rule that people who want to remove freedoms don't get them, you create a tool for any party in power to silence their opponents. There is no prerequisite like that in the first amendment. Go read the thing. Monarchism was a serious threat to the founders. Monarchists don't believe in many freedoms including freedom of…

> All political ideologues think their opposition wants to take away their freedoms. If you make the rule that people who want to remove freedoms don't get them

Analogous would be "if you make the rule that people who you think want to remove freedoms but actually don't" -- instead you're switching goal posts mid-sentence.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#734

Post by Houshalter » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:27 AM UTC

matttproud wrote: post #591

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…

>Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfortable society you call home.

Replace like 3 words in your comment, and I could make it into a rant advocating persecution of Communists. Which has happened before in the US. But it's ok now because it's against your political enemies?

Second, no they are not. They are a tiny tiny percentage of the population. They have been losing power and numbers for decades. They get little representation in the mainstream and in the media. When they speak up with their beliefs or attend a protest unmasked, they often lose their jobs. They are not even remotely a serious threat. Just like communists during the Red Scare.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#735

Post by Shinchy » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:28 AM UTC

Makes total sense, not sure why they would even need to write all of this up.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#736

Post by matt4077 » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:30 AM UTC

pitay wrote: post #685

mozumder wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems people have no idea that Nazis are actually extremely violent people. I'm not talking about your average racist, but people that identify with the Nazi party. Violence is central to their philosophy. If you actually met any modern-day Nazis, you would know this. It took me about two days of hanging out with Nazis before they literally tried to blow me up. This isn't some free-speech issue where you debate po…

A couple of things: 1. I was watching the news and in a picture I noticed one of the counter protesters using some sort of spray can as a flamethrower. I also saw the counter protesters beating up a spokesman for the protesters before the police saved him. So violence goes all around. 2. Arresting people just because someone like the parent here calls them violent is a really bad idea. As in, it's horrendous. If all…

The difference isn't the violence at any one rally. The difference is that one group (the one with the swastikas) actually advocates genocide. As in: there were people in Charlottesville who openly told reporters that they want to send jews/blacks/muslims to gas chambers. And even if there were only a few of those, the swastika, "heil X", and nazi salute are undeniably linked with the history of the Nazi party, the holocaust, and WW2. I just scrolled through a few pages of pictures, and I think it's fair to say that the protest were pretty homogenous in that regard. I don't see many history professors among these people demonstrating to preserve the value of confederate monuments for science. It's also somewhat telling that I'm having trouble finding a single woman among that side of the protest.

Given such a protest–and even if you disagree with the above, please entertain this as a hypothetical–what would be the makeup of the group of people opposing such a protest? It seems to me that, in principle, everybody who disagrees with the far-right ideology of these protesters could, or even should, be among the counter-protesters. You can be a Nazi, or you can be against Nazis. But I'm having a hard time imagining someone being neutral: "I think the idea of sending the jews to the gas chamber has potential, but I will reserve judgement until I have studied it in more detail" just doesn't seem like a common opinion.

And that's why people are so outraged with the President's "there are always two sides" equivocation: one side wants genocide, the other wants "no genocide". Even if both sides had been similarly violent (which they were not: only one committed a terror attack killing someone), they aren't comparable. Because for these Nazis, the opposition is in the way of their fantasy of a whites-only country, whereas for these opponents, the step after keeping the upper hand against the Nazis is "going home".

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#737

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:30 AM UTC

illuminati1911 wrote: post #615

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

[deleted]

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#738

Post by FooHentai » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:30 AM UTC

Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

"If a society is tolerant without limit, their ability to be tolerant will eventually be seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Popper came to the seemingly paradoxical conclusion that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

IMO this is the ideal rebuttal to the 'be tolerant' argument.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#739

Post by barsonme » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:30 AM UTC

jwdunne wrote: post #616

briandear wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communists killed multiple millions more. Yet Fidel Castro had world leaders at his funeral. The anti-Jewish progroms of the Soviet Union happened yet protesters who carry hammer and sickle flags aren’t treated with the same vile contempt as those who carry Nazi flags. Che Guevara’s face is plastered across all manner of pop culture and products yet that face represents communism and for some reason, it’s culturally…

Communism as an ideology doesn't have racism as a cornerstone. It's just that it's very easy for people who want to do that to sieze power. Karl Marx never wrote in his manifesto that whole ethnic groups should be eliminated because white Germans are superior. Racism and genocide is at the heart of Nazi ideology. It is steeped in the ideas of racial superiority. This is why their symbols are culturally unacceptable:…

...which means (or, at least is should mean) absolutely nothing.

Both Nazi and Communist regimes have killed staggering amounts of people in horrible and brutal ways. They're both repulsive.

Like, who really cares whether your ideology has hate as a cornerstone if you still commit genocide by starvation and throw millions in gulags to die? "Oh man, I'm dead but at least they didn't hate me while they slowly starved me to death!"

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#740

Post by k__ » Thu, Aug 17, 2017, 9:33 AM UTC

Perseids wrote: post #716

Akujin wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first sentence is the main reason we are so fucked. There's literally nothing radical or leftist in what I said. Nazism is literally responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths world wide. Fact. You know how I know you're actually a shill? > And don't even start with the car-thing. An individual psycho does not compare to organized widely accepted violence. Whataboutism in literally the next paragraph: > What…

I am not qualified to analyze the rest of the comments, but the last/first sentences strikes dear to me. In succession they were: > > > The idea that Cloudflare is a public space requiring the protection of the first amendment from a company's policies is laughable. The idea that I'm seeing any of these comments arguing to the contrary means HN is already infiltrated by /pol/ and other Nazi sympathizing groups. > > T…

I Akujin is right. Often I have the feeling we moved from the left-right spectrum to a triangle, where the "middle" from before has become its own extreme, that is touting the "free speech for Nazis" over and over again most because they fear of taking any sides.