A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France • Hacker News Board

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#731

Post by splintercell » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 7:43 PM UTC

benevol wrote: post #661

morgante wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how people trot out universal healthcare or pensions as a reason to ignore that European salaries are so much lower. With an American tech salary of $200k/yr, I can pay for all of that (health insurance, student loans, etc.) and still sock away $100k/yr in savings. That $100k is more than enough to build up a massive nest egg which will provide for me better than any pension or unemployment insurance would. If…

> With an American tech salary of $200k/yr Well, that means you're part of the "1%". In that case, you obviously don't have (m)any real problems. So, if you're thinking for the "1%", then your logic holds up. If on the other hand you believe to be part of the "1%" soon, then this quote may be of interest to you: “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but…

> “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - Ronald Wright, A Short History of Progress

This quote is by John Steinbeck not by Ronald Wright. Ronald Wright merely quoted Steinbeck.

The way Steinbeck actually said it (and the way you're implying it) is different than how Americans perceive this. To Americans, being a 'millionaire' is a goal to aspire to, it's like to every school kid who dreams of being Harry Potter who fights evil, is a goal to aspire to. But to Steinbeck (a self-described socialist) and to you, these goals are delusions.

America IS proudly the nation of temporarily embarrassed millionaires. To Americans them becoming a millionaire is what might happen, whereas to you, that's not what did happen.

The reason why European countries are not the nation of temporarily embarrassed millionaires because anyone aspiring that goal would rather move to America (that's also the reason why Europe does not have a real right wing). So what you're left with is people with a different kind of aspiration.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#732

Post by splintercell » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 7:46 PM UTC

throwaway1892 wrote: post #692

user5994461 wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also means you don't get paid 8 weeks a year. I remember very well when French employers forced me to get more holidays, which destroyed the income I needed to actually afford any holidays at all.

I'm calling BS on that. No, you get paid during your holidays in France, wathever the type, RTT or annual leave. In addition to that, you can take unpaid leave. Perhaps you were a contractor? In that case you would not be paid when you're not working.

No he's simply pointing out that your employer can only pay you what the market is allowing him to pay you. Or in other words, your salary is what your marginal productivity to the company is.

If you are not working for 2 months a year, then you're getting paid for only 10 months of what you could have gotten over 12 months.

In other words, there ain't no such thing as 'paid vacation' when the employer can simply account for that 'paid vacation' when making you an offer.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#733

Post by splintercell » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

hk__2 wrote: post #701

user5994461 wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In accounting terms, your pay is calculated as hourly rate * time working. It's averaged over the year and paid monthly. All the holidays are time not working over the year. So, yes, it is definitely lowering your pay.

That’s not true. Holidays are paid in France, that’s the point of holidays. You can take unpaid holidays if you need more time, though.

But the point is, that in the true sense you don't really get any paid holidays.

If your employer considers you worth $120K, then with 2 months of holidays, he will simply pay you $100K spread over 12 months.

In other words, paid or unpaid doesn't mean anything (other than a lack of option to those who don't want these vacations) as long as the employer and employee are free to negotiate the salary.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#734

Post by astrange » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #673

astrange wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a country about to have so many elderly people, I think the elevators are hard to reach and the floors shouldn't have been made of hard shiny/slippery marble. And it's actually quite expensive to get around if you start counting. There's nothing in the world to complain about aside from that.

> And it's actually quite expensive to get around if you start counting. Because you are closer to paying the real price of the ticket than in Paris where transportation is heavily subsidized by the state. In Japan most train companies have now become fully private.

The great thing about private train companies is how many other businesses they've built in the stations. There's a near infinite number of fake-French cafes in every subway.

Meanwhile here my nearest Caltrain station has some car repair places and a mystery fondue restaurant that never seems to open. I think it's a money laundering scheme.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#735

Post by hk__2 » Tue, Jan 17, 2017, 10:42 PM UTC

splintercell wrote: post #733

hk__2 wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not true. Holidays are paid in France, that’s the point of holidays. You can take unpaid holidays if you need more time, though.

But the point is, that in the true sense you don't really get any paid holidays. If your employer considers you worth $120K, then with 2 months of holidays, he will simply pay you $100K spread over 12 months. In other words, paid or unpaid doesn't mean anything (other than a lack of option to those who don't want these vacations) as long as the employer and employee are free to negotiate the salary.

Salaries are the same at companies that offer RTTs and companies that do not. I’ve more RTTs and I’m more paid that all my friends with the same profile in similar companies.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#736

Post by flurdy » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 10:49 AM UTC

Joky wrote: post #730

flurdy wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes is for more than just education! Anyway, you will benefit as your friends, colleagues, neighbors and especially your own children will not be burdened with the debt, and more likely to be well educated.

Isn't education the largest part of state spending in France (not saying it is bad thing, but still).

True, it probably is a large chunk though not sure if largest.

For example in the UK , education is about 1/6. Where as over 50% is NHS, welfare and pensions. (and only 0.3% is spent on unemployment)

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/09/public-attitudes-tax-di...

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#737

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 11:32 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #648

toomuchtodo wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair, but you should point out that you're using those advantages that aren't available to a typical employee (solo 401k where you can customize the plan, deducting your business expenses, etc).

That's true, but on the other hand I don't get any free vacation and have to pay for my own insurance. Whether employed or self-employed, you're still financially much better off in the US.

[deleted]

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#738

Post by bad_login » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 3:32 PM UTC

erowtom wrote: post #510

renaudg wrote: post #425

Regarding French salaries again : yes they are lower than elsewhere but with some exceptions, French employers are not the problem : they do pay the same price for you as in other European countries, more or less ! The difference is that your average engineer in France costs them around 1.5-2.5 times the total take home pay, because of high, compulsory labor taxes. In exchange, employees get as standard : * a top not…

Update : Thanks for the feedbacks ! 1st update: Included mobile phone + Internet 2nd update: Huge update, completly forgot about one tax on the salary.. ----------------------- I'm French, I can give you some more details. I'm a full stack Ruby Developer, and I work at https://www.talent.io , the first recruitment platform for developers in Europe. (If you're looking to relocate in Paris, London or Berlin, you know w…

I am french here is my earnings:

24000€ of gross (the company pay ~0.30 * 24000 = 31200€). 18360€ (1530€/month) is my income but on that i pay ~1000€ of taxes (salary tax) and ~400€ of city tax(this vary from city to city).

My rent is 360€/month for 60 square meters, sure i live in the middle of nowhere regarding jobs.

After all the mandatories costs of life i can save ~550€/month ~6600/year.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#739

Post by cgearhart » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #726

cgearhart wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one in America seems to understand how close they are to financial ruin from surprisingly common stuff. My wife has lingering complications from the birth of our last child. My statement of benefits from the insurance company for 2016 shows that they paid $97,000 for her this year, and this was at least the third year in a row at that level. Fortunately, I already had pretty good insurance when this whole mess sta…

You could use the ACA and/or COBRA to ensure coverage while you're in between jobs -- so what's the problem?

Until a few years ago the ACA was not an option, and the incoming government has been pretty clear that they intend to eliminate the ACA as soon as possible.

Re: A Visa for founders, engineers and investors willing to join France

#740

Post by reacharavindh » Wed, Jan 18, 2017, 4:17 PM UTC

rbobby wrote: post #652

reacharavindh wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wanted to add another data point for comparison. South East USA. All numbers in USD. Gross earnings = 104000 / year Bonus + Stocks = ~12000 / year Income tax = 31986 (27.5%) (Fed + State + Social security + Medicare) Earnings after taxes = 84014 Expenses : ----------- Rent : 1 BR in the city = 800/month or 9600/year (Living by myself) Utilities = 150 / mont or 1800 / year (Phone + Internet + Electricity) 401K co…

> I'd most likely move to Denmark or Netherlands later this year Just a tip... check out the application process for a work visa now. Work visas anywhere always take way longer than the applicant wants. Getting married before you leave will change the type of visa you need... and might shorten the time required (but probably by not as much as you'd hope). Good luck.

Thanks! Yes, I do plan to get married before I make the move. I saved up some money to spend two months traveling cheap with my GF before we make the full move and get into jobs.

Denmark is amazing in the sense that my GF's future employer(an University) says they will employ her partner(me) for an year according to my skills at market rate and also help us settle in with local culture and even help find jobs after the one year ends...