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Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

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Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#731

Post by piaste »

idlewords wrote: post #553
hueving wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you scare quoting "illegally"? They are here in violation of the law. If you don't believe in controlled immigration, just state that up front rather than trying to hide behind an appeal to emotion via stories of tearing families apart. Your argument seems to be either that long time violators of a law should gain immunity to the law; or that we should grant citizenship to anyone who enters the country. Which…

Because it is the only case in which "illegal" refers to a status rather than an action, as if the very act of existing in the United States without correct documentation was an affront against justice. This is a very un-American view of how the law works, and so the scare quotes are merited.

> Because it is the only case in which "illegal" refers to a status rather than an action [..] a very un-American view of how the law works

That's because the illegal action consists of being in a location where you have no right to be. And it's not, in fact, the only case. Compare it to its close relative, trespassing:

An "illegal resident" is someone living in a country of which they have neither citizenship nor visa.

An "illegal occupant" is someone living in a building of which they have neither possession nor tenancy.

It seems rather straightforward to me. Whether such a view is "un-American" or not I legitimately do not know, not being an American myself. Though I can say that that word doesn't have the proudest of histories, to put it mildly.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#732

Post by throw2016 »

betolink wrote: post #240

People here giving Thiel a free pass on his views and support for bigotry is just disgusting.

HN being full of sociopaths is well known. Being apologists for Thiel's odiousness is a new low.

The man clearly states what he means, trying to 'clarify what he exactly means' is convuluted apologism and revisonism. This is like saying slave trade is wrong but you support it. Ok.

If you agree with his views defend them on the platform of reason.

Let's not get carried away here. Trump has not won because he is racist, nobody now thinks racism is ok. He has won because of the disenchantment with the establishment and his opposite number being widely perceived as a crook.

If you think minorities and women are somehow different from you it will appear as bigotry unless you can offer some evidence or reason beyond generalising entire sections of humanity for some self serving and dubious cause.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#733

Post by Mikeb85 »

mlangdon wrote: post #350
maverick_iceman wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you realize that $1M is chump change to Trump?

Prove it. Let's see some tax returns. In the absence of evidence, it is reasonable to assume that he is heavily in debt with no liquid assets and effectively poor. He paid a 7 dollar boy scout fee for his son from his "charity."

His personal plane is a 757, and his office is in his own skyscraper...

He obviously has a lot of wealth. How much is liquid isn't really relevant, his 'income' isn't relevant, with the ultra-rich all that really ever matters is 'net worth'.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#734

Post by lightcatcher »

Jtsummers wrote: post #327
gnarbarian wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't call trump an extremist when half the country voted for him.

1) Seems a bit strong to tell someone what they can and can't say. 2) He didn't get half the country to vote for him. It looks like around 55-60% of voters turned out this year (the whole tally isn't calculated yet). Of those, he got less than 50% (as Clinton got more votes than him). So at best he seems to have gotten around 30% of the voters to vote for him. Not everyone is a voter (age, other disqualifying factors…

> So at best he seems to have gotten around 30% of the voters to vote for him.

What do you mean by this exactly? Trump lost the popular election with 47.5% support to Clinton's 47.7%. How did you come up with the "around 30%" figure?

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#735

Post by mixedCase »

fooey wrote: post #435
tptacek wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why exactly am I meant to be comforted by the fact that the craven opportunists --- the lowest of the low of the Republican party, discredited outsiders like Newt Gingrich and John Bolton --- are getting the most important positions in the United States government for kowtowing to Trump? There are important thinkers in the Republican Party. People with ideas and a moral core, people who have given years of service to…

America didn't elect a technocrat. We elected a bigmouth reality TV star. Should probably think of the Trump cabinet as something more like a Breitbart sitcom than a functional administration.

You're talking as if Hillary "like with a cloth or something" Clinton was a step-up in technological knowledge over "my son's very good with the cyber".

Both options sucked in that regard.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#736

Post by masondixon »

domfletcher wrote: post #625
masondixon wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I promise not to argue against you, and certainly not to slur you. Please argue! And thank you for not slurring :) > Would you be willing to articulate your argument for Trump here? I supported Obama. I always considered myself a liberal. I support gay marriage, I support gun control. I support universal health care. I support decent welfare and a safety net. As a programmer, the formative moment for my Trump suppo…

I think you're right about the need for debate around how identity politics can be better expressed and that is a debate that seems to have been slightly suppressed on the left. I would say two things about why I don't think this is a good reason to support Trump: 1. The situation you describe is fundamentally about freedom of speech vs the right not be be offended. Trump is not an advocate of freedom of speech and d…

> As has been described elsewhere in this thread the damage he will do (if he enacts even half of his platform) to immigrant and womens rights, America's standing in the world and free trade will outweigh a hundredfold any small gains you get from a backlash against political correctness.

But in four years will you admit you're wrong if it doesn't turn out to be the case?

No. It will go on and on and on.

I feel I respond to all this fear mongering constantly:

> immigrant rights

Immigrants are better off with stronger borders. People don't have to suspect them of being illegal. Has that occurred to anyone on the left?

> womens rights?

Trump: I oppose the use of government funds to pay for abortion.

A supreme court judge may be an issue though, but it is unlikely to reverse policy.

> America's standing in the world

It is bad at the moment.

> free trade

Both candidates oppose TPP. Canada wants to talk about NAFTA. Free trade destroys local jobs.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#737

Post by gedrap »

rootlocus wrote: post #576
masondixon wrote: post #575

A huge issue today is the lack of calm, reasoned debate. As a Trump supporter I have never been able to properly explain the rationale to a liberal. I believe there is a worthy debate beneath all the political smear, but it is never reached. I believe the reason for this is the liberal media and the incredibly effective Democratic party election machine. The argument stays at the high level of "how could you vote for…

> Thankfully, freedom of speech is such an integral part of the US, that there is not one side trying to control what the other can say, and the other doing the same back. Sure, you and Donald Trump can say whatever you please. Nobody's restricting your freedom of speech. However, what you say betrays who you are. And what Trump said showed he's a liar, misogynist, tech illiterate, arrogant and overall a disgusting h…

Sorry but your comment simply indicates the problem.

It's quite similar to the post-Brexit discussions, how pro-Bexit people are stupid, etc.

We can talk about what a "liar, misogynist, tech illiterate, arrogant and overall a disgusting human being" he is all we want. It would probably be fine, as in it wouldn't really matter, if he was some random radical weirdo with an audience of a dozen equally weird folks. But he's the President-elect.

So we can continue with this circle jerk rant about what a disgusting human being is and what his voters are like. Or we can try to actually understand why so many people voted for him. But in order to do that, we need to stop the whole rant that never changes.

I am not pro-Trump. In fact, my safety largely depends on NATO and Trump poses a threat. But there's no point in shouting about what a misogynist he is. It's so counterproductive.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#738

Post by masondixon »

hamax wrote: post #670
masondixon wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you were willing to potentially sacrifice women's rights, minorities rights, lgbt+ rights, the environment, business regulations, and whatever else conservative Trump appointments might do? You see how here you are saying that I am in favour of sacrificing womens, minorities, lgbt, etc. rights. You see how it is basically saying: You are are a sexist, misogynist, racist? Why don't you ask me what I think about thos…

> You see how it is basically saying: You are are a sexist, misogynist, racist? Oh cry me a river. It's starting to look like your only debating tactic is "stop oppressing me". You said it yourself that you voted for quoting "a racist, sexist, misogynist, xenophobe" because "One side is for freedom of speech, the other side is for controlling what you can say." How is floodyberrys post not a fair representation of yo…

There are errors in your argument, others agree as you have been down-voted. I will not respond.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#739

Post by unethical_ban »

eachro wrote: post #578
masondixon wrote: post #575

A huge issue today is the lack of calm, reasoned debate. As a Trump supporter I have never been able to properly explain the rationale to a liberal. I believe there is a worthy debate beneath all the political smear, but it is never reached. I believe the reason for this is the liberal media and the incredibly effective Democratic party election machine. The argument stays at the high level of "how could you vote for…

My issue with Trump has never really been about his politics. I get that immigration and loss of manufacturing jobs due to globalization are serious concerns for a large swath of the American population. What I don't understand is how anyone could feel comfortable with him as commander in chief, or as the US's representative in the international community. Perhaps that's not what most people are concerned about, but…

To an extent, I agree. And wouldn't it be great if people understood the President should have a much more limited role than they expect now? The Affordable Care Act being called "Obamacare" shows the way presidents establish all kinds of policy. He's put executive actions on immigration, power generation, and more.

If only pepole expected the Legislature to do that, then we wouldn't be in a position of worrying that Trump will undo almost every policy achievement of Obama's.

It will suck to go backwards in climate agreements.

Re: Peter Thiel To Join Trump Transition Team

#740

Post by masondixon »

peterclary wrote: post #687
masondixon wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was just one candidate in this election that wants to control what you can say. And it wasn't Hillary. I don't agree Trump here. But I am not talking about the candidates. I am talking about BLM, SJWs, and Feminists vs. everyone else. With a racist, sexist, misogynist, xenophobe in the White House now, they must now show prove that his actions reflect their fears...or realise that they were misguided and tone…

I recognise that you are trying to engage and explain your point of view. I respect that, even though I disagree with you. You may have grievances (legitimate or otherwise) but you have to weigh up the pros and cons. In 1920s Italy you might have been daily frustrated by the poor reliability of the railways but that didn't mean that voting for Mussolini would have been a good idea overall. Also, not that I ascribe th…

Clinton was known as the more war hungry candidate. And there is proof in her track record. Trump wants to be friends with Russia.
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