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Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

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Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#721

Post by jabelk »

VexXtreme wrote: post #718
jabelk wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you're being discriminated against and keep saying that "it's just human nature" and you "don't mind" doesn't mean that other people can't campaign against discrimination. Unless you are actively supporting it? Is your argument that we should have more discrimination, or just that we should turn a blind eye? PS - this sort of thing is ingrained in everything technology related. Not just in HN articles a…

> doesn't mean that other people can't campaign against discrimination. Of course not, I never said that. I don't support discrimination in any way. I love different people and all the diversity living in such a society entails. I love living in such a vastly different world and interacting with different people on daily basis, even if it sometimes causes misunderstandings to happen. I am just asking everyone to chec…

You said "I have literally been denied housing multiple times on the account of not being a local and that fact wasn't even hidden from me. Do I care? Not really"

To me, that sounds a lot like you "not really caring" about "prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or category" which is the wikipedia definition of discrimination. So I'm not seeing the strawman here.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#722

Post by VexXtreme »

jabelk wrote: post #711
VexXtreme wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody's asking you to give up your identity. But the thing is - is being able to use the word "bro" such a core part of your identity that avoiding it means giving up your identity? Could you just avoid it as a favor to the people out there who feel bad when they hear it? I would avoid it if it was a slur that belittles other people. So no. If you choose to be offended by a word that young men in North America men…

No one is asking anyone to stop using the word bro. It is about context . As in, being mindful about using the word bro when both men and women are involved in a field where women are actively discouraged from participating in the first place.

> women are actively discouraged from participating in the first place.

Alienating people by having extremist attitudes is surely not doing you any favors in terms of getting more accepted.

It helps to keep a sense of humor about things. No one is being discriminated against. The man created a Linux command line tool and did a word play on the original name. If you find this offensive and exclusionary instead of seeing it as a clever pun, you've got serious baggage. Over and out.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#723

Post by aragot »

etjossem wrote: post #567
evolve2k wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With this much concern in the community a fork actually isn't a silly idea. Anyone prepared to actually fork this thing? Anyone have other name suggestions?

Someone else in the thread suggested 'tin', which I love! "What does 'curl' do?" "Does what it says on the tin page." $ tin curl # get the contents of a web page curl https://news.ycombinator.com/

Foreigner here (French). Why is Tin funny? It stands for the small metal box with food inside, like Can, doesn't it?

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#724

Post by jabelk »

Crake wrote: post #717
jabelk wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bro is exclusionary to women because it is a word for a man or boy. So associating guys (and exclusively guys) with the name bro in this way is a small sign to women that they don't belong. I am sure this seems inconsequential to you, and taken by itself, it is. But as a woman, seeing literally (first definition) dozens of these signs every single day on everything related to technology, it adds up. You, personally,…

Feminists told me that their movement fights for equality for everyone, despite the fem- in their name. Am I to understand that this is no longer the case? All these feminists keep telling me different things. Talking to a feminist about gender equality is like talking to a christian about marriage equality. They all think they have the divine truth, but divine truth never seems able to agree with itself.

Ugh. What is not equal to men in my comment?

And, irrelevant sidenote, I have never attached the "feminist" label to myself. I'm just a woman, calling it how I see it. So tell me your perspective.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#725

Post by Dewie »

dewitt wrote: post #15
mkr-hn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bro transcends a single very new and very narrowly-distributed usage.

I think a lot of people are familiar with the term. It is not a compliment. See http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro . "Obnoxious partying males who are often seen at college parties." "An alpha male idiot. This is the derogatory sense of the word (common usage in the western US): white, 16-25 years old, inarticulate, belligerent, talks about nothing but chicks and beer" "A usually white young male, fou…

I don't get it. If someone made a command called "bi###", people would feel that it was hostile towards women - and understandably so. But then someone creates a command with a name that - by your account - is hostile towards a certain kind of male archetype, that name is... hostile towards women?

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#726

Post by VexXtreme »

jabelk wrote: post #721
VexXtreme wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> doesn't mean that other people can't campaign against discrimination. Of course not, I never said that. I don't support discrimination in any way. I love different people and all the diversity living in such a society entails. I love living in such a vastly different world and interacting with different people on daily basis, even if it sometimes causes misunderstandings to happen. I am just asking everyone to chec…

You said "I have literally been denied housing multiple times on the account of not being a local and that fact wasn't even hidden from me. Do I care? Not really" To me, that sounds a lot like you "not really caring" about "prejudicial treatment of an individual based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group or category" which is the wikipedia definition of discrimination. So I'm not seeing the stra…

You're moving the discussion goalposts. This isn't about housing in Asia and I have no time to discuss that. I have made my opinion on racism and discrimination well known. If you are choosing to ignore that and move goalposts around, it just proves you're an unreasonable person.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#727

Post by jabelk »

Crake wrote: post #719
ElComradio wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. Stay home. Higher salaries for everyone else.

Including the women who aren't crazy over sensitive outrage promoters. Shocker, there are women in tech who don't shit their pants every time they see the word "bro." I think the feminists will intentionally never manage to notice this, though.

I do recognize this. All the time. 6 months ago, I would not have batted an eye at this "bro" thing, so I certainly am aware of other women who don't notice. But I wouldn't call myself a feminist so maybe that's the rub.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#728

Post by aragot »

raganwald wrote: post #392

My experience is this: Some time ago, I wrote a post about CoffeeScript. As you may know, CoffeeScript is a whitespace-specific programming language. I am black, and there is a small cultural wiggle-room when it comes to black people making fun of colour-based cultural issues. So I thought I could get away with calling my post "White Power." The response was immediate and scathing. Regardless of whether I was persona…

Thank you Raganwald. You are comment #500 on this page, I've read them all with an angry feeling, and you are the first one who touches me.

You've made a decisive point in a 500-comment HN flamewar. Congrats.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#729

Post by aragot »

morsch wrote: post #13

Looks similar to the established commandlinefu site: http://www.commandlinefu.com/ There are scripts to search it from the terminal, e.g. https://github.com/t9md/cmdline-fu It's a nice complement to man pages, especially since it contains complex examples using multiple tools linked by pipes, which is where the terminal really shines.

You know why it isn't successful? Because everyone will remember 'bro'. Scandal and analogy is sometimes an efficient way to do marketing.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#730

Post by aaren »

reallyseriously wrote: post #540
aiiane wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of a number of my colleagues who specifically avoid HN because of that very reason, so, yes.

Is this the part where I should say something about how they need to "toughen up" and they must be "too sensitive"? jk. That's actually a real shame. I'm not going to venture a guess at the % of threads that any woman would find offensive but always thought HN was roughest on people's work when seeking feedback, etc.

There are threads like this one that become explicitly about gender. They aren't particularly inviting. Sometimes they make the front page, in which case there is a semblance of discussion. They aren't a great advert for hn as an inclusive space though.

In general the problem is more with the atmosphere in threads that aren't explicitly about gender. This means things like the language that people use or the assumptions that they make when writing a comment. Sometimes these aren't very welcoming to women (other groups too), or are just offensive.

When people get called out for this behaviour, it can spark a big shitstorm of argument in which people often lose all concept of polite discussion and ask for rigorous proof that someone does in fact feel marginalised. This isn't very encouraging.

Links to geekfeminism seem to provoke a strong reaction from some people, but here's one for you:

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Male_Programmer_Privilege...

I encourage you to read this (even if you don't agree) and then spend some time on hn just thinking about the content of discussion knowing that some people might feel this way. Empathy is the key.

Not all of the examples on that page are applicable here because this isn't a physical space or a workplace. Yes, a lot of them are anecdotal - it's a wiki and a collection of peoples experiences. I'm not saying that you are necessarily privileged. Treat the page as it is - a collection of experiences.

I've bothered to type this out because you seem to be reasonable and to argue in good faith. To understand why people feel marginalised can take a bit more than logical argument though. You need to be open minded and to attempt to empathise with other people.

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