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They’re made out of weights

maxleiter.com

721–730 of 739 posts

Re: They’re made out of weights

#721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely a sizable contingent of people who desperately want to believe consciousness is just electrical impulses in our brain. Because "what else could it be"? The fact is that we just don't know, and "abiding in the not-knowing" is for many the most uncomfortable thing ever. Especially for the curious- and rational-minded people this forum tends to attract. I'm one of them, too.

It is basically reductionism , or in the extreme atomism , and (as I understand it) it has largely fallen out of fashion both in the philosophy of science and in the philosophy of mind, since it heyday in the 1970s. And I don’t see it coming back into fashion any time soon. I can definitely see why reductionism would appeal to an educated public. We learn about the periodic table; we are able to break sentences down…

Nit: A truly educated public would not take reason (empirical evidence, denial of the magical, unseen, or superstitious) to mean that we must assert that we live in a clockwork universe or assert an explanation of the mind based on observable Newtonian physics and electrical phenomena. Confusing a clockwork model of the universe with reason, or thinking that the choice between that and superstition is binary, is actually a pre modern and uneducated way of framing the problem of how the universe works, and if it's the recourse of the "educated" shows a dangerous regression from how educated they were 50 years ago.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is basically reductionism , or in the extreme atomism , and (as I understand it) it has largely fallen out of fashion both in the philosophy of science and in the philosophy of mind, since it heyday in the 1970s. And I don’t see it coming back into fashion any time soon. I can definitely see why reductionism would appeal to an educated public. We learn about the periodic table; we are able to break sentences down…

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory don't preclude reductionism, and I wouldn't say it has fallen out of favor as a whole. Certain types certainly have, but not the overall idea. Also, nothing about the idea of the mind only being made up of physical processes means things have to be deterministic.

If the mind is made up only of physical processes, then the only way it could be non-deterministic is if the physical processes themselves were non-deterministic. In that case neither the mind nor the physics can be reduced to a deterministic model in any meaningful sense where the same inputs would generate the same outputs, so reductionism falls apart if you introduce non-deterministic physics as the base.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think "Respectfully, you are miles out of your depth here." couldn't have just been left off?

To repeat: your behavior ruins things. Hall monitors aren't needed everywhere.

Just as a reader with no particular dog in the philosophical (or semantic) fight over how well we do or don't understand the brain: That rude remark lowered rather than increased my estimation of your knowledge or authority on any subject you would be discussing. Generally, people who are highly knowledgeable and confident on a subject don't resort to telling others they are out of their depth, because they don't need to. At the very least, it's suspicious to throw an ad hominem into your rebuttal.

Winning a debate is about convincing the audience, and I found that an unconvincing statement, apart from it being an obnoxious rhetorical tactic.

But it did make me think of The Big Lebowski. "You're out of your depth, Donnie!"

Re: They’re made out of weights

#724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i know the sun shows up every day and i know if i go inside my basement i dont get a tan. do i understand the sun?

Some schools of the philosophy of science would argue that you do. However you are describing is a very different acquisition of knowledge then what scientists did when developing SSRI medicine. We had to: 1. take pictures of brain activity under different conditions to see which regions were active during different moods, 2. sacrifice a bunch of mice to see which neuro-chemical activated which neurons, 3. predict th…

Yes, but our friend's apt analogy shows the danger of absorbing Plato's cave as the one thing you learned in Uni. If everything is a shadow on the wall then, of course, every type of study you just mentioned is merely another set of shadows. Nothing can be proven, and the coin of the realm is not to disprove anything but merely to signal your disbelief. Arguing with data for the power of reason against such a philosophy is pointless, as sincere as your response was (and I did appreciate it).

Re: They’re made out of weights

#725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we attempt to recreate those complex, planetary atmospheric phenomena in a box, we're doing so in order to measure and study them. Making random turbulence in a box until it resembles the outside world, and calling it weather and extrapolating some predictive meaning from the result, is the total antithesis of what you're describing about why we come up with simplified models for impossibly complex systems. The…

> The purpose of [mathematical] models that are built thoughtfully is to explain why complex systems are the way they are, with data and algorithms, however imperfectly. Nope. The main purpose of the whole endeavor is usually to predict the behavior of a complex system, because that's actually what we care about. If we can predict it, we can adapt to it, and eventually use it to our advantage. Explaining why a comple…

I think we're talking about different kinds of models. I was referring to things like fluid dynamics equations that explain why gases and liquids move and how they act when changing states, as a basis for building weather models that predict how things will unfold in the future.

I'm also a fan of going the other direction: I've had a sideline working on code to evolve genetic algorithms for the past 20 years, and while the goal of that is to be predictive and profitable, it's often the underlying real-world dynamics my little mutants surface which are the most interesting and applicable in the long run. So I'm not saying there isn't a place for throwing everything at the wall until you see what sticks and then deriving a hypothesis from that (whether your interest is to predict the future, or merely academic, to explain the past). What I am saying is similar to you: We should not treat any model as an oracle. But I'm also saying that models can be built or they can be evolved, and if we only evolve them without understanding how they work, we are missing a crucial ingredient to knowing how well we should rank them. Overfitting and sample bias and data leakage are not problems when you want an equation to calculate airflow over a wing. If you began with an evolved equation which derived the results and didn't start from the base reality, you couldn't trust that equation to be airworthy even if it were right 99.99% of the time against the data it was trained on.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The purpose of [mathematical] models that are built thoughtfully is to explain why complex systems are the way they are, with data and algorithms, however imperfectly. Nope. The main purpose of the whole endeavor is usually to predict the behavior of a complex system, because that's actually what we care about. If we can predict it, we can adapt to it, and eventually use it to our advantage. Explaining why a comple…

I don't know - this is a highly specific interpretation of both what science is and why people choose to do it. I'm a scientist. Believe it or not, I believe in substantially more than prediction and I think its rather trivial to come up with examples where mere prediction is insufficient to meet a normal person's notion of an account of a thing (eg, pre-copernican planetary motion). I'm not saying you are wrong, per…

Great post. And that's exactly where I think we are with language models... we as a civilization are hypnotized and enchanted by the overfitting of models whose parameters are beyond our understanding, but whose mistakes we are more likely to forget than its accuracies, which again is a central human characteristic that explains our attraction to both psychics and slot machines.

Heck, it even explains my own attraction to overfit sports betting algorithms. No one is immune.

What's dangerous is when something like that replaces independent thought and becomes societally pervasive. That's an "oracle" the likes of which ancient civilizations warned that believing would lead to tragedy (or at a minimum, accidentally boning your own mother).

I'm an atheist, but raised Jewish. I read the Torah as a series of specific warnings and prohibitions against every type of shamanism, magic, witchcraft, prognostication, and deification of systems which predict (as well as systems which attempt to turn language into machinery, and worship the machine they've built ... see also, "Sound of Silence" by Paul Simon and "The Future" by Leonard Cohen, which both express this theme well). The framework requiring proof and disavowing illusion or the belief that all is illusory is notably different from a Buddhist perspective, for example.

We as a culture, right now, are not handling well the rise of a golden idol or an oracle in our midst. The right response is to try to trace the output back to ground truth and figure out why your model made a prediction... or else to build a model from ground truth and see how it performs against the oracle. We are doing neither. We're diving headlong into our own confirmation biases.

[Edit] I just wanted to add, because I got off track, that your conclusion about what's going on with human curiosity in cases where prediction is not the issue seems right to me. Barring some edge cases like predicting an eclipse and using it to slaughter your enemies, I think a lot of us do simply want to understand how things work, because figuring them out is enormously gratifying and is the work of lifetimes of incredible people who came before us. Using that knowledge or those techniques to predict things is technology, not science, and while I'm a fan of both, the former is only ever a practical test of the latter. Moreover, the sense of accomplishment of randomly walking your way to a profitable model is ephemeral and in a way earthbound, limited to the plane of one's own brief existence. Even if it were platonically perfect, a model is only saying how something behaves, not how it works. That's nothing compared to the joy of figuring out even the most trivial or axiomatic thing about how a cell or a compound or a physical structure or anything works, about how the universe actually works. And I think our better angels tell us to seek those answers, because our own life is fleeting, and predicting behavior is, like wealth, something you can't take with you. And not something you'll be remembered for anyway.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#727
post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we attempt to recreate those complex, planetary atmospheric phenomena in a box, we're doing so in order to measure and study them. Making random turbulence in a box until it resembles the outside world, and calling it weather and extrapolating some predictive meaning from the result, is the total antithesis of what you're describing about why we come up with simplified models for impossibly complex systems. The…

> Sit next to a bank of slot machines for an hour and listen to the absolutely ridiculous shit most people will come up with to explain how they "know" if a machine is going to pay out soon, and then tell me if you think it's a good idea to give them an LLM in their pocket to answer their questions in whatever way they frame them. If the LLM in their pocket has a more robust world model than they themselves and is e.…

I actually wish I could upvote this more. It's a great point.

Yes, if the LLMs didn't amplify whatever people already thought and feed it back to them as sycophantic praise, and instead scolded them into realizing they were doing something dumb, then maybe we would be having a totally different conversation.

But then the conversation might be about an LLM scolding someone into committing suicide instead of helping them commit suicide.

Both might be just as bad.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#728
post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course any research programme requires some assumptions. But I don’t see any reason to call it a fallacy. Saying that something may be “challenged” or is problematic is just weasel wording. Either there are some serious issues that makes such theories ”flawed in the sense that they cannot account for subjective experience and agency, amongst other things”, or they are just normal theories.

True, any research programme requires assumptions. The problem lies when those assumptions are either false or theoretical (unproved), and the community derives facts or claims from them. Behind the actual AI programme operate the following assumptions (at least): 1. A biological assumption, that states that the brain works similar to a digital computer. The reality is that we do not know. 2. An epistemological assum…

You say that "the community" derives facts or claims from unproved assumptions, yet at the same time you say that you "strongly tend to disagree" with those theories and that the theories are "flawed in the sense that they cannot account for subjective experience and agency, amongst other things" merely on account that they are neither confirmed nor unconfirmed. I am confused about your stance. You allow yourself to have strong opinions about something unknown yet criticize other people for the same.

I think it is absolutely normal that the core of a theory is based on not directly testable assumptions. And it's normal that people push it forward if it bears fruits, that's not a fallacy in any way, that's normal inquiry that may or may not lead to successful results.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#729
post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, any research programme requires assumptions. The problem lies when those assumptions are either false or theoretical (unproved), and the community derives facts or claims from them. Behind the actual AI programme operate the following assumptions (at least): 1. A biological assumption, that states that the brain works similar to a digital computer. The reality is that we do not know. 2. An epistemological assum…

You say that "the community" derives facts or claims from unproved assumptions, yet at the same time you say that you "strongly tend to disagree" with those theories and that the theories are "flawed in the sense that they cannot account for subjective experience and agency, amongst other things" merely on account that they are neither confirmed nor unconfirmed. I am confused about your stance. You allow yourself to…

> You say that "the community" derives facts or claims from unproved assumptions, yet at the same time you say that you "strongly tend to disagree" with those theories and that the theories are "flawed in the sense that they cannot account for subjective experience and agency, amongst other things" merely on account that they are neither confirmed nor unconfirmed. I am confused about your stance. You allow yourself to have strong opinions about something unknown yet criticize other people for the same.

The assumptions I refer to are not only unproved, there is also increasing evidence that they are false. I do not criticize based on the assumption that there is subjective experience, but on the well developed idea that there must be something like 'subjective experience'. Here we enter the realm of philosophy, which by the way, is what science encounters when it runs out of answers. And this was precisely my point: AI research is based on assumptions that _need support or help_ from philosophy, not only neuroscience. But what is at stake here is the prevailing neurocentrism and scientificism characteristic of our era.

> I think it is absolutely normal that the core of a theory is based on not directly testable assumptions. And it's normal that people push it forward if it bears fruits, that's not a fallacy in any way, that's normal inquiry that may or may not lead to successful results.

That is correct and it is precisely why they are called 'theories': because the evidence points towards a specific direction but there is not yet enough evidence to call it a law.

Yet different theories, based on different assumptions, demand that those assumptions be tested at the fundamental level: logical, epistemological, philosophical, etc.

Regarding the theory that current LLM research could lead to human level intelligence, many people have the opinion that it can be discarded on fundamental grounds. Why? Because the assumptions that this theory stands on are flawed.

An issue I repeatedly see in the community (about which Dreyfus already wrote in his 1972 book, confirmed in his 1992 book, and we still see today) is that challenging the fundamental flaws in which current AI research is based on immediately sparks outrage in the AI community, as if people challenging those assumptions are against AI or AI research at all. I think that is a really silly, childish and not very humble position, and ultimately slows down research.

Re: They’re made out of weights

#730
post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that "the community" derives facts or claims from unproved assumptions, yet at the same time you say that you "strongly tend to disagree" with those theories and that the theories are "flawed in the sense that they cannot account for subjective experience and agency, amongst other things" merely on account that they are neither confirmed nor unconfirmed. I am confused about your stance. You allow yourself to…

> You say that "the community" derives facts or claims from unproved assumptions, yet at the same time you say that you "strongly tend to disagree" with those theories and that the theories are "flawed in the sense that they cannot account for subjective experience and agency, amongst other things" merely on account that they are neither confirmed nor unconfirmed. I am confused about your stance. You allow yourself t…

Now you again say that there is increasing evidence that the assumptions are wrong and that the foundation is flawed, but when you get to specifics you merely claim that something is unknown or unconfirmed.
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