Earlier quoted context omitted.
YOU can use remote attestation to verify a remote server you are paying for hasn't been tampered with.
This happens much less frequently than the manufacturer of "my" computing device verifies that I haven't tampered with it. On net, it's a wholesale destruction of user freedom.
Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
721–730 of 770 posts
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#722Earlier quoted context omitted.
You do know what analogies are, right?
A fundamentally flawed way to make an argument? Yeah I know what analogies are. Why does my bank need to know whether the machine in my hands that is accessing their internet APIs was attested by some uninvolved third party or not? You know we used to hand people pieces of paper with letters and numbers on them to do payments right? For some reason, calling up my bank on the phone never required complicated security…
Because there are an infinite ways for a computer to be insecure and very few ways for it to be secure.
Checks were a form of attestation because they contained security features that banks would verify.
Would YOU be willing to use a bank that refused to use TLS? I didn't think so. How is you refusing to accept remote attestation and the bank refusing to connect to you any different?
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#723Earlier quoted context omitted.
You DO understand you can own more than one phone, right? Just use one that isn't rooted as a dedicated banking device and the rooted phone for whatever else you need. You are making life far too hard.
But to have two desktop computers — one attestable and other not — is much more hard than two mobile devices. And we are discussing this movement here. You know, пive him an inch and he'll take a yard.
Would YOU be willing to use a bank that refused to use TLS? I didn't think so. How is you refusing to accept remote attestation and the bank refusing to connect to you any different?
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#724Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not even that. The main reason is probably that attackers are going to be writing code to automate their attacks, and desktops are easier to develop on than phones, so that's what they use with no reason to do otherwise. Even if you stopped supporting desktops, then they would just reverse engineer the mobile app instead of the web app and extract the attestation keys from any unpatched model of phone and still…
All this theatre is turning out to be nothing more than giving up the agency we have today (nice things), for a risk averse kneejerk runaround with glaring ulterior motives...just like the scan your face+id push for services.
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#725Earlier quoted context omitted.
If a malicious update can be pushed because of some failure in the signature verification checks (which already exist), what makes you think the threat actor won’t have access to signing keys? This is not what attestation is even seeking to solve.
Firmware upgrades don't need to use the same protocols. Without secure boot any applet can take a security hole escalate and persist until you take a trip to a zone of interest. With secure-boot+attestation, the vendors can choose not to let you download the latest map data, report you to the authorities, etc. Why do people take DA as "Hail Satan" anyways.
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#726Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm Aleksa, one of the founding engineers. We will share more about this in the coming months but this is not the direction nor intention of what we are working on. The models we have in mind for attestation are very much based on users having full control of their keys. This is not just a matter of user freedom, in practice being able to do this is far more preferable for enterprises with strict security controls. I…
that’s great that you’ll let users have their own certificates and all, but the way this will be used is by corporations to lock us out into approved Linux distributions. Linux will be effectively owned by RedHat and Microsoft, the signing authority. it will be railroaded through in the same way that systemD was railroaded onto us.
This is basically true today with Secure Boot on modern hardware (at least in the default configuration -- Microsoft's soft-power policies for device manufacturers actually requires that you can change this on modern machines). This is bad, but it is bad because platform vendors decide which default keys are trusted for secure boot by default and there is no clean automated mechanism to enroll your own keys programmatically (at least, without depending on the Microsoft key -- shim does let you do this programmatically with the MOK).
The set of default keys ended up being only Microsoft (some argue this is because of direct pressure from Microsoft, but this would've happened for almost all hardware regardless and is a far more complicated story), but in order to permit people to run other operating systems on modern machines Microsoft signed up to being a CA for every EFI binary in the universe. Red Hat then controls which distro keys are trusted by the shim binary Microsoft signs[1].
This system ended up centralised because the platform vendor (not the device owner) fundamentally controls the default trusted key set and is what caused the whole nightmare of the Microsoft Secure Boot keys and rh-boot signing of shim. Getting into the business of being a CA for every binary in the world is a very bad idea, even if you are purely selfish and don't care about user freedoms (and it even makes Secure Boot less useful of a protection mechanism because it means that machines where users only want to trust Microsoft also necessarily trust Linux and every other EFI binary they sign -- there is no user-controlled segmentation of trust, which is the classic CA/PKI problem). I don't personally know how the Secure Boot / UEFI people at Microsoft feel about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if they also dislike the situation we are all in today.
Basically none of these issues actually apply to TPMs, which are more akin to limited HSMs where the keys and policies are all fundamentally user-controlled in a programmatic way. It also doesn't apply to what we are building either, but we need to finish building it before I can prove that to you.
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#727Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm Aleksa, one of the founding engineers. We will share more about this in the coming months but this is not the direction nor intention of what we are working on. The models we have in mind for attestation are very much based on users having full control of their keys. This is not just a matter of user freedom, in practice being able to do this is far more preferable for enterprises with strict security controls. I…
So far, that's a slick way to say not really. You are vague where it counts, and surely you have a better idea of the direction than you say. Attestation of what to whom for which purpose? Which freedom does it allow users to control their keys, how does it square with remote attestation and the wishes of enterprise users?
As an aside, it is a bit amusing to me that an initial announcement about a new company working on Linux systems caused the vast majority of people to discuss the impact on personal computers (and games!) rather than servers. I guess we finally have arrived at the fabled "Year of the Linux Desktop" in 2026, though this isn't quite how I expected to find out.
> Attestation of what to whom for which purpose? Which freedom does it allow users to control their keys, how does it square with remote attestation and the wishes of enterprise users?
We do have answers for these questions, and a lot of the necessary components exist already (lots of FOSS people have been working on problems in this space for a while). The problem is that there is still the missing ~20% (not an actual estimate) we are building now, and the whole story doesn't make sense without it. I don't like it when people announce vapourware, so I'm really just trying to not contribute to that problem by describing a system that is not yet fully built, though I do understand that it comes off as being evasive. It will be much easier to discuss all of this once we start releasing things, and I think that very theoretical technical discussions can often be quite unproductive.
In general, I will say that there a lot of unfortunate misunderstandings about TPMs that lead people to assume their only use is as a mechanism for restricting users. This is really not the case, TPMs by themselves are actually more akin to very limited HSMs with a handful of features that can (cooperatively with firmware and operating systems) be used to attest to some aspects of the system state. They are also fundamentally under the users' control, completely unlike the PKI scheme used by Secure Boot and similar systems. In fact, TPMs are really not a useful mechanism for protecting against someone with physical access to the machine -- they have to trust that the hashes they are given to extend into PCRs are legitimate and on most systems the data is even provided over an insecure data line. This is why the security of locked down systems like Xbox One[1] don't really depend on them directly and don't use them at all in the way that they are used on consumer hardware. They are only really useful at protecting against third-party software-based attacks, which is something users actually want!
All of the comments about DRM obviously come from very legitimate concerns about user freedoms, but my views on this are a little too long to fit in a HN comment -- in short, I think that technological measures cannot fix a social problem and the history of DRM schemes shows that the absence of technological measures cannot prevent a social problem from forming either. It's also not as if TPMs haven't been around for decades at this point.
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#728Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm Aleksa, one of the founding engineers. We will share more about this in the coming months but this is not the direction nor intention of what we are working on. The models we have in mind for attestation are very much based on users having full control of their keys. This is not just a matter of user freedom, in practice being able to do this is far more preferable for enterprises with strict security controls. I…
> I've been a FOSS guy my entire adult life, I wouldn't put my name to something that would enable the kinds of issues you describe. Until you get acquired, receive a golden parachute and use it when realizing that the new direction does not align with your views anymore. But, granted, if all you do is FOSS then you will anyway have a hard time keeping evil actors from using your tech for evil things. Might as well g…
A lot of the concerns in this thread center on TPMs, but TPMs are really more akin to very limited HSMs that are actually under the user's control (I gave a longer explanation in a sibling comment but TPMs fundamentally trust the data given to them when doing PCR extensions -- the way that consumer hardware is fundamentally built and the way TPMs are deployed is not useful for physical "attacks" by the device owner).
Yes, you can imagine DRM schemes that make use of them but you can also imagine equally bad DRM schemes that do not use them. DRM schemes have been deployed for decades (including "lovely" examples like the Sony rootkit from the 2000s[1], and all of the stuff going on even today with South Korean banks[2]). I think using TPMs (and other security measures) for something useful to users is a good thing -- the same goes for cryptography (which is also used for DRM but I posit most people wouldn't argue that we should eschew all cryptography because of the existence of DRM).
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootk... [2]: https://palant.info/2023/01/02/south-koreas-online-security-...
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#729Well I was wondering when the war on general computing and computer ownership would be carried into the heart of the open source ecosystems. Sure, there are sensible things that could be done with this. But given the background of the people involved, the fact that this is yet another clear profit-first gathering makes me incredibly pessimistic. This pessimism is made worse by reading the answers of the founders here…
Then gpu and cpu makers will hop on and lock their devices to promote paid Linux like redhat. Or offering "premium support" to unlock your gpu for Linux for a monthly fee.
They'll say "if you are a Linux enthusiast then go tinker with arm and risc on an SD card"
Re: Lennart Poettering, Christian Brauner founded a new company
#730Earlier quoted context omitted.
> there's no reason that remote attestation can't be used in the opposite direction There is: corporate will fund this project and enforce its usage for their users not for the sake of the users and not for the sake of doing any good. What it will be used for is to bring you a walled garden into Linux and then slowly incentivize all software vendors to only support that variety of Linux. LP has a vast, vast experienc…
> There is: corporate will fund this project and enforce its usage for their users not for the sake of the users and not for the sake of doing any good. I'd really love to see this scenario actually explained. The only place I could really see client-side desktop Linux remote attestation gaining any foothold is to satisfy anti-cheat for gaming, which might actually be a win in many ways. > What it will be used for is…
It will be, no doubt. As soon as it is successfully tested and deployed for games, it will be used for movies, government services, banks, etc. And before you know you do not have control of your own computer.
> Who owns the garden?
Not you.
> everyone installs overlays over the top of that
Except this breaks cryptography and your computer is denied multiple services. Because you are obviously a hacker, why else would anyone want to compile and run programs.
> turning the integrity protection off (and no means to do so on PC hardware)
It's a flip of a switch, really. Once Microsoft decides you have had enough, the switch is flipped and in a couple of years no new Intel computer will boot your kernel.