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EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

eu-inc.org

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Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#721
Since it's inception in 1993, not a single global top 100 company have been created by any of the EU countries so the struggle is real.

However I would strongly caution against thinking that reducing paperwork to set up your company is somehow going to magically solve any of the fundamental problems with EUs ability to create sector dominating companies. But even if we assumed it would, that just means that the bigger companies now have even more leverage.

The real problem is deeper. It's about how EU is designed and structured. EU was created as a way to harmonize and standardize regulation between member countries to make trade simpler. (Anyone remember the cucumber directive)

However as technology have improved and manufacturing started supporting a much more bespoke and customized world, the union started started looking at other forms of regulation that went deeper, each step: expanded central authority and reduced national discretion

We've seen things like one EU Patent court, GDPR, Cookie Law, AI Act, monetary currency all attempts at improving the efficiency of the single market, in reality, none of that have changed the fact that the EU still have not created a single industry leader since it's inception.

It's simply impossible to create a SpaceX, Tesla, Uber, OpenAI, Nvdia, Airbnb, even X, Linkedin or Facebook in Europe, not because of bureaucracy but because of the following 3 things:

1. EU tries to solve problems politically and centrally that startups are much better at solving locally 2. EU utilizes the extreme caution principle on everything and thus end up creating an extreme risk averse approach to what is allowed and what isn't. In effect startups end up creating businesses that the EU allow, rather than what the market need. 3. It's very hard for anyone let alone a startup to challenge the EU regulative system. Yet anyone of the above mentioned companies have constant battles with regulation and legislation. Even those companies can't really win over the EU regulative system, now try and be a startup trying to challenge som of the regulation, good luck.

Europe have plenty of talent and plenty of problems that the startup world could help solve, but as long as the EU politicians compete with their own startup environment at solving these problems no amount of bureaucratic easing is going allow for the full potential of the European talent base.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#722
post #216

My Dear German friends, please accept that EU-inc is a massive boost for EU competitiveness. Continuing to block progress here only proves that the EU is good at making promises on paper but fails to deliver real change. The reason this "28th regime" actually works—and bypasses the previous vetos — is that it’s optional. It doesn’t try to force Germany to change its local GmbH laws or kill the notary system overnight…

I've asked before - I am not clear what the massive boost is other than saving a few days or weeks at the beginning. I believe all taxation, labor compliance and other such regulation is still the same as the status quo. The one time ease of setup doesn't seem to be worth the ongoing hassle of dealing with the same crap, just with the added friction of a new and unfamiliar entity structure. What am I missing?

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Massive German tax money is already today used for non-national interests. Please elaborate. You're complaining that DE tax funds go to the EU? Very curious what you're talking about and your rational.

It's one of the idiotic "our tax money is spent for bicycle lanes in foreign countries" mindsets many right wingers share in Germany.

[dead]

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#724
post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also smaller. The ‘waste’ also counts towards GDP, as long as the money keeps moving. Lots of people have built homes and families off it. What really slows an economy down is when money stops moving.

> The ‘waste’ also counts towards GDP, as long as the money keeps moving. Honestly, that explains a lot. Vastly different perspective from what I'm used to, but useful insight into the US.

Yup. It can be pretty brutal living it too. But most places are, frankly, in their own ways.

Still way easier than India, for example, where the answer is often either the same or ‘try to scam your way around the problem’ if you can’t.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#725
post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> The EU was supposed to bring countries together, but I think it did quite the contrary What are some concrete examples of how Europeans countries are now further away from each other, since the start of EU and because of EU? As someone who enjoyed the ability of freely moving across the continent to find a country I'm actually comfortable living in, it's hard for me to imagine EU made countries more distant to each…

Well, in the logistics department there is definitely more freedom. But it's not as much as you would think. You can ship stuff easily, travel easily, and send money easily, but at the end of the day, you'll have to submit to the government bureaucracy of each specific country with no real unifying logic and not even a shared language. Technically, English is used everywhere (even though, ironically, the English are not even part of the EU anymore), but you can't really rely on it to get anything done locally in small cities. If you want to move in the middle of France, good luck trying to deal with the bureaucrats in English for example.

Then the freedom was a pretext to do a lot of social dumping. If you ask the workers of the Renault plant that got displaced in the east because of lower labor costs, they won't have a lot of good things to say about this freedom. I know a trucker who somewhat hates Poles, not because he has anything against them particularly but because they engage in social dumping by competing for work in France while only following laws from Poland. A Frenchman living in France can never be competitive with that because he has to pay a lot more in taxes and follows the French laws.

Germany engages in regulatory warfare for electricity. They are ideologically against nuclear and imposed renewables as the only solution (while burning a shit ton of coal/gas). Since their approach is very costly and not reliable, they imposed regulation on the European electricity to make the cheaper French nuclear electricity less competitive. That wasn't enough, so even though they don't have nuclear anymore, they forced themselves into the Flamanville project and imposed their insane regulation (via Siemens), which is the major reason it took so long. This is industrial sabotage and engaging in bad-faith collaboration. And now we have to sell them winter electricity on the cheap while they offload their summer electricity that literally nobody wants. It's impossible to not hate them for it, since electricity prices have risen tremendously for the end consumer. The crazy part is that it completely undermined the supposed goal of lowering emission (people went back to heating with wood-burning and paraffin/kerosene stoves).

Spain floods the market with cheap fruits/vegetables that are much cheaper not only because of geographical comparative advantages but also because they import cheap seasonal labor from North Africa, often not respecting labor rules (that much became obvious in the COVID crisis).

Italy wants to leave because they are going down the fascist path they already took a while ago.

Lidl, a German supermarket chain, sells cheap Chinese-made tools in their stores under the pretense of German quality. But since the rise of platforms like AliExpress/Temu, consumers have had access to similar items for even cheaper because they allow cutting out the middleman. Unsurprisingly, the EU ruled that now consumers have to pay taxes on the items they buy directly from China. Freedom is OK only when it is the powerful that can fill their pocket after engaging in rampant social dumping. For now, China has settled on shipping stuff to a warehouse located in Eastern Europe and dispatching it from here, basically using a regulatory loophole that allows them to pay the cheapest amount of taxes.

I could go on and on, but the reality is that the EU has largely impoverished and weakened most of its constituent countries. It doesn't look that way for now, because everything has been paid for with unsustainable debt. But now the invoice is being presented to the young generations. The EU can't even manage to make a common army or apply regulation uniformly across countries (look at the labels on products).

All it has done is create unfair competition that benefits the powerful first and foremost. So yeah, you can travel freely, but who cares? In my youth I traveled in many EU countries before it was open like that. Stopping at customs and having to exchange currency was inconvenient, but improving those mild problems is definitely not worth the massive amount of exploitation and dissent that has resulted.

The EU is the same ideological enterprise as the USSR, and the same problems that are linked to a massive bureaucracy are now showing up. You just cannot force different groups to adopt the same rules/behaviors because there are too many cultural differences. Values are too far apart, and the environment/advantages are too different. Germany likes the EU a lot because they have outsized political power in it and are the ones who profit the most: they get access to cheap eastern labor/resources while being able to sell in the rich markets of their neighbors on the other side.

We may enjoy the freedom while it lasts, because the EU is under attack from all fronts. Russia is waging a real war, China is engaging in economic warfare and the US is pulling out military support to gain resources. The constituent countries are not any stronger, and in fact, they have weakened their position on many fronts. Fighting together is illusory because the interests/incentives are more often opposed than aligned.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a hack, if you operate the entity from Germany, it must be registered in Germany. It's often touted as a tax loophole, but it's not. Tax authorities do not care about you unless you actually make money, then they will come after you.

Which law says it must be registered in Germany?

It's not that it must be registered (incorporated) in Germany. It's that for tax purposes if the company is run from Germany it will be considered "permanently established" and treated as resident there. Permanent establishment laws are often quite surprising to people doing business across different territories.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that easy if you want European integration and support the idea of "freedom of settlement" also for companies, which to me makes sense and it is known that some countries try to pull companies to register in their legislation with sometimes improper means. I would prefer to focus on Irish taxation, which extracts value produced elsewhere to Irish benefit. Workers rights are being unified, but that's a long c…

>c) I'm currently on garden leave period after 18 years in the company (incl acquisitions) due to a reduction, where works council produced a quite nice exit for me Isn't this type of generosity the exact reason why German companies are making restructuring and moving jobs abroad where they don't have workers councils and such generous exit packages? Like I'm sure it worked well for you now, but I'm wondering how sus…

It is complicated and has multiple dimensions. For example it also leads to workers not switching Job away from an employer as quickly.

It's also interesting how it plays together with social benefits: As it is hard to fire people, hire&fire isn't an approach, thus companies keep workers longer during a downturn, thus when they let go there is more budget for social security.

Also the effects of having works council representatives on the board might lead to decisions not tied to the quarterly results, but long-term stability.

This all of course makes it harder to do experiments, build up a business unit to see if an idea might work ...

As a worker it is quite good and the model worked quite well for large parts of the 20th century. With global competition (for many jobs exact location doesn't matter) it could be a factor which plays a role in being late with digital stuff.

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#728

It's inordinately difficult and expensive to start an LLC or SA in some EU countries. It's even difficult and expensive to _stop_ an LLC and dissolve it. Huge amount of risk and cost on founders and a huge distraction from running a business. I think that EU-Inc _could_ be an improvement, but it needs to avoid the committee laundry list of ideas/requirements/form fields that plagues the EU startup ecosystem. My worry…

UK has been the easiest place to form a LTD

but UK sucks with reporting requirements - now they even require IDs for directors

if EU-inc can have incorporation costs of less than 30£ - then no reporting requirements if say revenue is under 200k then yeah its a win and no other BS like notaries etc

Re: EU–INC – A new pan-European legal entity

#729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a company should be able to register in x days Which EU bureaucrats will fully pass by treating this as "a company should be able to register in x days once the full set of documents has been collected".

Companies are treated like persons legally and while I'm sure there is too much bureaucracy in many places, I'm also sure that there are important documents that should be required. For example to make sure that a company can be held responsible when it breaks the law. There are already enough loopholes to disconnect legal responsibility from profit-taking, and not every company is benign. Sure, if the documents cann…

This is admirable but the process in Germany right now is overly burdensome. It probably does weed out some bad actors (and good actors) not because of the documents required or any sort of checks performed, but because it takes months and costs thousands of euros.
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