Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone" • Hacker News Board

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#721

Post by Daishiman » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 7:12 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #668

piva00 wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it has anything to do with free speech laws, it's simply civics and the lack of it in American society due to a multitude of factors. American society doesn't understand collectivism in any level, your country has been built upon individualism without much care for collective living, you just reap what you've sown.

I'm not sure that's quite the case, because as a country we do tend to be rather compassionate when motivated to do so. You frequently hear from travelers "Americans are the nicest folks you'll meet" and I generally believe that's true. It's not about individualism vs collectivism, but lack of empathy enforced through transportation methods that by design create a lack of social cohesion. Scandinavian countries for e…

Being nice and being empathetic are very different things. Niceties are protocol; you can be empathetic and considerate while displaying very different types of mannerisms.

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#722

Post by ux266478 » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 7:15 PM UTC

deltarholamda wrote: post #225

powvans wrote: post #10

This is really amazing to see trending on HN. I spent a couple days in Pontevedra this summer while walking the Camino de Santiago. It was absolutely delightful and what I experienced aligns with the article. The old town was filled with wide streets almost exclusively for walking, cafes and restaurants that sprawled into plazas, and people young and old enjoying the car free public space. It was one of the first sto…

>Where it exists you can see that there is tremendous demand for it. Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time, or they witness (or experience) violence, or some other anti-social behavior sours the whole thing. I spent some time in NYC during the Giuliani years, after the city did a lot of work cleaning it all up: stopping turnstile jumpers, removing graffiti, more police, etc.…

What he suggests is completely besides public transit, it's about spaces in general where cars aren't allowed or catered to. It doesn't just apply to big cities, but mid-sized and small cities have an absolute dearth of pedestrian-focused plazas. Small towns are extremely hostile to basic foot traffic. There's no reason for this to be the case. In Europe the small town equivalent will have a center where most of the commerce and services are, where cars are completely forbidden. You simply drive into town, park somewhere and carry out your business on foot. It's very nice.

Plazas do exist in the US, but they're rare. Very rare, especially outside of New England. That's what OP is talking about, public transit is a 'solution' to a different problem, and one that I don't like either. See, my biggest problem with urbanism is that it's overwhelmingly focused on building huge megacities, which are inherently unwalkable nonsense. Instead, walkability becomes rhetoric for any mode of transit that isn't a car. I hate that. I want walkable living spaces that are actually walkable, not urban environments where I walk to the train station because the city is too large for its own good.

I don't want to replace the personal car with public transit. It misses the point entirely. I don't want to have to use anything more intensive than an e-scooter to get around the place I live at all. Walking to the train station and riding that for 10-20 minutes to get to the other side of the city sucks. The social problems endemic to public transit in the US are just icing on the cake. Tokyo is a hellish nightmare compared to an Italian commune.

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#723

Post by ericmay » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 7:20 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #721

ericmay wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's quite the case, because as a country we do tend to be rather compassionate when motivated to do so. You frequently hear from travelers "Americans are the nicest folks you'll meet" and I generally believe that's true. It's not about individualism vs collectivism, but lack of empathy enforced through transportation methods that by design create a lack of social cohesion. Scandinavian countries for e…

Being nice and being empathetic are very different things. Niceties are protocol; you can be empathetic and considerate while displaying very different types of mannerisms.

Ok. Americans are nice, kind, empathetic, polite, and considerate.

Or is there more you want to quibble about on this topic?

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#724

Post by Earw0rm » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 7:21 PM UTC

Saline9515 wrote: post #703

Earw0rm wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this will be the road racer guys (it is mostly guys) screwing up while descending an Alp or Pyrenee. Split-second safety margins and if you get it wrong on a 60kph descent - or someone else gets it wrong, or you suffer a mechanical failure - you're likely dead.

A city is a much more dangerous environment. You have bollards, stupid pedestrians who keep on trying to circulate on YOUR sidewalk, potholes, dogs, and so on.

It's really not, because speeds are so much lower - and injury is, by and large, related to kinetic energy which is the _square_ of speed.

OK, cycling at 50km/h in a city is dangerous and stupid (if you're even physically capable of doing so, which few are?). 30km/h in suburbs / 20km/h in the centre is mostly fine, and 10 for busy complicated spaces.

30km/h is slow enough to prevent the vast majority of crashes being fatal, and 20km/h will avoid most serious injuries.

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#725

Post by mschuster91 » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 7:22 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #412

stephen_g wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re flexible (don’t need to rip up rails to change routes) but they cost a lot more to run (tyres, fuel, maintenance, staffing cost) to carry fewer people. A tram can carry three, five or even more passengers with the same one driver, and are way more energy efficient to boot. Then there’s ride quality (much smoother) and psychological differences - e.g. you can run them through pedestrianised areas because peopl…

> A tram can carry three, five or even more passengers with the same one driver This is a negative! Service matters. If you have more than 50 passengers per hour off peak, or 200 peak you should be adding more service. A small 50 passenger bus can easially handle those numbers (they are per hour, people shouldn't be riding any bus for more than 10-15 minutes). Only when you are running a bus every 5 minutes should yo…

> the bus shares the cost of the road with other users

A bus does much more damage to the road than a tramway though (to say nothing of trucks, these are even worse). Anything rail based, the load from weight and movement is transferred via the rails and subterranean sleepers to the foundation, whereas a decently used bus road will need to be resurfaced at least every five years, more in a hotter climate as the buses will inevitably seriously groove the asphalt. Tramways is more like every 20 if not 30 years until you need to do a full replacement.

On top of that, this "the cost is already paid" math is annoying to me on a personal ethical level because it excuses putting people into cars and freight onto trucks because "they already are there".

> A bus is a lot more energy efficient than a car (assuming people use it), the additional gain from a tram for the same number of people is minimal.

A single Class R 3.3 tramway vehicle (~36 tons) in Munich carries 218 people, more if you squish the passengers ("Sardinenbüchse" feeling). Munich's largest bus with a carriage unit, in contrast, carries 130 people [1] at ~20 tons. The gain from regenerative braking that you get on tramways actually matters at that scale, and as said, drivers are already short in supply.

Fully agree on your calculation regarding traffic by the way, however the problem in practice often is that a bus network is planned and installed based on very conservative estimates, induced demand hits and the buses are overcrowded, but no one wants to put up the money and upgrade to a tramway because "we just got buses, they aren't even paid off yet".

[1] https://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenchen/setzt-anhaenger-busse...

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#726

Post by victornomad » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 7:23 PM UTC

Saline9515 wrote: post #715

jjevanoorschot wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not saying that everyone in the Netherlands agrees with me. I’m just illustrating that it’s perfectly possible to live in a city like Paris or Amsterdam with a family and without a car.

Impossible to go to a store, buy groceries for a week with two kids on a bike. And at some point the cargo bike gets as big as a small car.

that's exactly my situation and many of my friends and no problem at all :)

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#727

Post by Saline9515 » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 7:32 PM UTC

darkamaul wrote: post #640

Saline9515 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Paris' subway doesn't have elevators, impossible with a stroller. - Buses are crowded, very slow, and being blocked for >1h because of protests or roadworks with a sick newborn is a rather unpleasant experience. I did it already. And in general, public transportation in Paris has degraded a lot. Who wants to explain to his 3-year-old son what this fine gentleman is doing while heating crack in the back of the train…

There’s a reason why most Parisian families use a Yoyo stroller or another lightweight, foldable model: you can easily take them on the subway, and if you need help with the stairs, people are always willing to help (I’ve never seen anyone refuse). Buses can be slow during peak hours because of traffic congestion, but during the day they’re fairly reliable and have plenty of space for strollers. The Paris Metro is ex…

Yeah, so how do you fold a Yoyo with a newborn in the arms? You can't really, and some stations have a lot of stairs. Regarding drug addicts, I saw many, it really depends on where you live. My son was born in Paris, and we left as soon as we could because it felt really stupid to endure all of this. Buying a car felt like I discovered a time travel machine.

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#728

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 7:34 PM UTC

SilverElfin wrote: post #708

vkou wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect a lot of crimes aren’t tracked or classified properly People don't under-report or misclassify homicides . > when you walk through the cities and realize something is off with this narrative. I happen to live in one of those war-torn anarchist cities that was claimed by Fox and friends to be an open charnel pit back in 2020, and I assure you, there is something off with a narrative . Specifically, the nar…

> People don't under-report or misclassify homicides. They do. I’ve seen games like changing the rules by which deaths are counted as homicides and when. For example by requiring certain things are proven before it can be counted in a reported stat.

[deleted]

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#729

Post by vkou » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 7:34 PM UTC

SilverElfin wrote: post #708

vkou wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect a lot of crimes aren’t tracked or classified properly People don't under-report or misclassify homicides . > when you walk through the cities and realize something is off with this narrative. I happen to live in one of those war-torn anarchist cities that was claimed by Fox and friends to be an open charnel pit back in 2020, and I assure you, there is something off with a narrative . Specifically, the nar…

> People don't under-report or misclassify homicides. They do. I’ve seen games like changing the rules by which deaths are counted as homicides and when. For example by requiring certain things are proven before it can be counted in a reported stat.

And this happens on such a regular and systemic, and party-lines nature, so that all these liberal cities consistently undercount homicides by such incredible margins, despite all their police forces leaning heavily towards authoritarian-right?

Do you have any proof for this, or is this a 'the earth is flat' sort of assertion? Can I just as confidently assert that it's actually the Republican-ran states that dramatically doctor and undercount homicide stats?

Maybe Memphis actually has 10x the homicide rate of NYC...

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#730

Post by pclmulqdq » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 7:38 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #444

pclmulqdq wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also design things so that people are not crammed in at a rate of hundreds of thousands per square km. Then, car-based infrastructure gives you a lot of freedom to place homes and businesses far apart and have reasonable travel time and capacity for everyone. When I moved from Manhattan to an "evil" suburb full of "stroads," my door-to-door time to pretty much everything decreased. Getting rid of waiting for…

> You can also design things so that people are not crammed in at a rate of hundreds of thousands per square km. Yeah I mean that's like 99.9% of the surface of the world, nobody is preventing you to go live your dream. We're specifically talking about cities, a city without population density is not a city by definition

For some reason, urbanists like to attack suburbs while also saying that everything is so far apart and takes so long. If you want to live in a city, live in a city, but don't pretend that it's the only way to live.