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Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

nytimes.com

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Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#721

Post by socalgal2 »

franciscop wrote: post #419
socalgal2 wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Japan there are almost only private buses. many are run by and around the private train companies as a way to get their trains to be more useful to more people like when a 25 minute walk from the closest station is a 10 minute bus ride and the busses come often enough to be convenient

The train companies in Japan, while private in name, can only be described as hybrid. They have massive gvmt concessions for land to build their malls and make profit. The gvmt also has a lot of direct and indirect influence on them (and the other way around). In fact I'm literally now in one cafe in one of those malls, I haven't used the train today but still a part of my money goes to the train company thanks to th…

How is buying land a consession and building on it a consession? Any normal private company can by land and build on it. Are you sure you're not considering it a consession because you're used to "public" transporation (in which case it would be a consession) and not just the normal things any private company can do (in which case it's not a consession)

Even if they are consessions I think they are a positive. They provide a positive feedback loop for the train companies. Better trains = more customers for their other interests and visa versa. If the trains start to suck people don't want to be on that line and choose a different line for their businesses, houses

Compared to public transporation where it's just politians who decide budgets and with few exceptions (Netherlands for example) they almost never decide well.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#722

Post by atoav »

Aloisius wrote: post #630
atoav wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but back then streets were for people and horses. There were no clear markings separating the sections, there were no laws making it illegal for you to walk on the streets. If there were traffic laws, nobody knew them and people wouldn't know which way to go to avoid a head on collision. If you'd just replace cars with horses today it would go a lot different.

Uh. Sidewalks existed and pedestrians mostly stayed on them for their own safety. Jaywalking wasn't made illegal until the 1950s, well into the car era. And it wasn't just horses. It was horse-drawn carriages . There wasn't that much difference, traffic wise, between carriages and cars. There were traffic jams, out of control vehicles, drunk drivers, street racers, collisions, etc. all back in the 19th century.

Yeah? This is what I meant: https://image.geo.de/30155632/t/17/v5/w1440/r0/-/new-york-19...

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#723

Post by dangus »

danbmil99 wrote: post #690
dangus wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This statistic looks really bad but a large number of subway stations are very close to each other, so it's rather easy to find an alternative accessible station somewhat nearby in many cases (especially in Manhattan) When the MTA prioritizes accessibility projects they take this into consideration and prioritize stations that have few options for alternatives. I will also point out that buses exist in NYC.

The NYC buses require you to take the kid(s) out of the pram and fold it up. A total PITA Another kvetch: using car seats in taxis. Maybe it's different now with Uber but 20 years ago the drivers hated it because you have to find the seat belt and secure the car seat...

NYC parents already know this and have strollers that fold up to backpack size. The stroller market has progressed incredibly in recent years, there are strollers designed to fold with only one hand.

Ubers/taxis with car seats are no big deal as long as you’re quick about setting them up. And even then, kids are only in full blown car seats for a few short years.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#724

Post by toss1 »

kazinator wrote: post #719
toss1 wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course everything can be computed. I'm talking more of the overhead for every single person who might want to come into the city on a given day — they will need to check and work their schedules around 1) being sure to check the current permitted/denied license plate character pattern and 2) work their schedules around that. As we've already seen, we already need substantial work-arounds for critical can't move me…

I think that if the license plate appears as a URL parameter, you could just save a browser bookmark. Click on it, and there is your schedule for the next umpteen months. Ideally, they wouldn't change it more than, say, nine months out. I.e it is set in stone for three quarters of a year. A month is added each month. No "tuning" anything closer than 9 months. > we already need substantial work-arounds for critical ca…

>>Ideally, they wouldn't change it more than, say, nine months out

So, the system is highly unresponsive compared to adjusting a toll +/- a small amount for changing conditions

The system is also completely unresponsive to time-of-day issues, so e.g., if they want to dampen traffic in 11:30-15:30...

>> free passes associated with counters tied to license plates Right, another entire kludge system to attempt to accommodate a weakness, and then it only works for one-offs. Nevermind the week-long events that often bring people into the city, which now need yet another work-around...

>>traffic violations ...What's the difference?

The difference is a bill for a $9 toll vs a $150 violation for driving in the congestion zone on a forbidden day.

Yes, a toll is different from a violation. OFC, if you fail to pay the toll, it can turn into a violation, but that is NOT the same thing

>>go easy Right, which reduces the effectiveness of the entire system because the abusers will game it even more to take advantage while the poor people will get hammered even more.

I love technology, but I also know that adding ever more complex tech to "solve" a problem is often a bad solution. In this case, it will literally not even help the poor people, and will help significantly the people with two cars.

If you want to work better for low-income people, just scale the congestion tolls to the value of the cars; those are already only one lookup away from the license plates. E.g., the basic toll is $9, but for cars over $100K value, it scales proportionally.

Now you aren't handing out traffic ticket violations to people who must come in on the 'wrong' day.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#725

Post by kazinator »

toss1 wrote: post #724
kazinator wrote: post #719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that if the license plate appears as a URL parameter, you could just save a browser bookmark. Click on it, and there is your schedule for the next umpteen months. Ideally, they wouldn't change it more than, say, nine months out. I.e it is set in stone for three quarters of a year. A month is added each month. No "tuning" anything closer than 9 months. > we already need substantial work-arounds for critical ca…

>>Ideally, they wouldn't change it more than, say, nine months out So, the system is highly unresponsive compared to adjusting a toll +/- a small amount for changing conditions The system is also completely unresponsive to time-of-day issues, so e.g., if they want to dampen traffic in 11:30-15:30... >> free passes associated with counters tied to license plates Right, another entire kludge system to attempt to accomm…

> I love technology, but I also know that adding ever more complex tech

Says the person who wants to adjust prices by the hour in response to real-time data, LOL.

Why would we care about fine tuning by the hour, when we can just make 75% of the cars disappear, all day long.

I would apply the ban 24 hours a day. If your car is not allowed tomorrow and you don't want to use a free pass, and you must absolutely drive, then get there before midnight tonight and sleep in your car.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#726

Post by gjsman-1000 »

tomhow wrote: post #700
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is all plainly false. Community members who are sincere about wanting to make HN better or just holding the moderators to account can easily do so. They can email us with URLs, or include URLs in their accusatory comments. Plenty of community members do that and we always take action or explain our thoughts on the matter. Accusations like this one, without any evidence that would enable other community members t…

I maintain that the claim inflammatory content is equally treated is plainly false. I would even say that your post above serves only to deflect from your own conduct.

Case in point, just today, of what I have seen hundreds of times in just the last year:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44018355

This does not pass guidelines, this does not satisfy curiosity, I have rarely seen a warning for content like this. Sometimes it gets flagged, more often it doesn’t.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#727

Post by toss1 »

kazinator wrote: post #725
toss1 wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Ideally, they wouldn't change it more than, say, nine months out So, the system is highly unresponsive compared to adjusting a toll +/- a small amount for changing conditions The system is also completely unresponsive to time-of-day issues, so e.g., if they want to dampen traffic in 11:30-15:30... >> free passes associated with counters tied to license plates Right, another entire kludge system to attempt to accomm…

> I love technology, but I also know that adding ever more complex tech Says the person who wants to adjust prices by the hour in response to real-time data, LOL. Why would we care about fine tuning by the hour, when we can just make 75% of the cars disappear, all day long. I would apply the ban 24 hours a day. If your car is not allowed tomorrow and you don't want to use a free pass, and you must absolutely drive, t…

Umm, the simplest tech to actually do the job. I wasn't talking about adjusting prices by the hour, more like by the week or month, but as you point out, with a toll system, it would be straightforward to do real-time updates. So, zoom out a bit.

The point is to use the simplest practical system that does the job, in this case managing traffic congestion.

With no system, the costs of making extra traffic are externalized from each driver onto every other driver and city resident.

A congestion toll puts back on every driver coming into the zone a small fraction of those externalized costs. The toll costs are small, typically a fraction of what it would cost to even park for any time in the zone, or buy fuel. This system allows EACH INDIVIDUAL to freely, for themselves, decide if it is worthwhile to bear that fractional cost. And the system is paid for largely by the drivers making the congestion.

In contrast, a lottery system is a government agency controlling everything with an extremely blunt instrument (or, if it is tunable, a blunt instrument with a kludged-on rat's nest of spaghetti-code to handle every fairness exception).

The entire burden is on the city and the NON-driving residents to foot the cost of implementing it. It costs the drivers massive inconvenience (as discussed earlier), gives a free pass to multi-car households, and people who need to come in on "off" days are penalized with moving traffic violations, which have a much higher cost, especially for low-income people.

Lotteries are even worse for your dude wanting to drive in and sleep in his car to avoid the 24hr ban; with a lottery, he still cannot drive anywhere the entire next 24hr day, but to avoid the toll, he needs only come in before the congestion time and park until the congestion time ends.

Seriously, this discussion has clarified that a lottery is worse in every way, for the drivers, including the low-income drivers, overhead for the city and it's residents, and for the system itself which will work much less well.

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#728

Post by kortilla »

sebstefan wrote: post #417
kortilla wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car drivers are very routinely punished for running red lights. That is far less common than cyclists doing it.

"Cyclists Break Far Fewer Road Rules Than Motorists, Finds New Video Study" ( https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists... ) Perhaps if there is a no bikelanes and cyclists are bothering you on the sidewalk you should walk in the middle of the road, as the real danger is bikes, right?

Talking about red lights, not speeding

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#729

Post by kortilla »

wpm wrote: post #274
kortilla wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car drivers are very routinely punished for running red lights. That is far less common than cyclists doing it.

Yes, a $100 ticket or whatever, horrible punishment.

It ends up being several hundred dollars in California and adds a point to your license (too many causes suspension).

Re: Changes since congestion pricing started in New York

#730

Post by vb234 »

askafriend wrote: post #229
vb234 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. We live in Manhattan with two kids and owning a car is just an added expense without much benefit. To be fair, if you lived further out in Brooklyn (Bayridge, Sussex Beach and Coney Island) you probably need a car for the day to day.

Overall, would you recommend Manhattan (or nearby) with kids? What's your experience been like and do you see staying long term? Hope you don't mind me asking, I'm just super curious about this topic!

We are committed to staying here for the long term. I think it is a matter of perspective and what one wants to prioritize. From a cost perspective, I think the cost of raising 2-kids in the suburbs or cute towns outside the city within commuting distance nets out to about the same. The advantages I see are the following: * Children are just more active on average, kids end up walking 45 minutes or more every day going back and forth from school, activities etc. * Subway and general community interaction. I get the subways are a pain, but it is a great way for children to interact with different classes of people and communities, understand social risks etc. * Meritocratic public high school system. I have some reservations about the elementary and middle school systems, but there are 4 elementary schools within a 15 minute walk radius so there is optionality, admittedly it is a bit hard to exercise. * So many play grounds. We take our kids to various activities and classes on the weekends, and we are never far away from an interesting playground.

I think it really depends on what will keep you and your family happiest. We have friends that determined they want more space and privacy and ended up moving to the suburbs and are happy. Know enough families that moved out and couldn’t handle the sedentary lifestyle and moved back. Feel free to message me if you have more questions.

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