The Demoralization is just Beginning • Hacker News Board

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#721

Post by tokioyoyo » Wed, Mar 05, 2025, 9:18 PM UTC

coolThingsFirst wrote: post #607

tokioyoyo wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you lived in Denmark, Japan, China, Netherlands and some other countries in the past 10-15 years? I really don’t think you weigh in people’s personal preferences and general quality of life into your equations. There is a very big reason why there’s no more large swaths of immigrants from European and some Asian countries flocking into the US. Yes there is some, but the times when it was objectively much better…

It's not just money. There's another aspect which the US has that edges out the competition. The fact that everyone is treated as an American in the place without racism/xenophobia. This is a huge benefit over impenetrable countries like Denmark/Netherlands.

Half of your country actively rallies on the idea of sending back Chinese, Indians, Mexicans and etc. I think you just live in a bubble or educated circles where that’s bot tolerated, but that’s not the experience of every single immigrant.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#722

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 05, 2025, 9:22 PM UTC

feoren wrote: post #692

greenhearth wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of authoritarian countries that have been economic disasters.

Sure. They say the best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship, while the worst form is a malevolent dictatorship. The problem is that the former almost always turns out to be the latter in disguise, or at least devolves into it rather quickly.

[deleted]

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#723

Post by greenhearth » Wed, Mar 05, 2025, 9:35 PM UTC

feoren wrote: post #692

greenhearth wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of authoritarian countries that have been economic disasters.

Sure. They say the best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship, while the worst form is a malevolent dictatorship. The problem is that the former almost always turns out to be the latter in disguise, or at least devolves into it rather quickly.

What a ridiculous statement. Any dictatorship is a subpar expression of a state. We don't have to figure out the best government. We already have all kinds of ideas about this collected from millennia of thought on this subject. We just have to study and bring it into reality.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#724

Post by agentultra » Wed, Mar 05, 2025, 9:40 PM UTC

desumeku wrote: post #716

agentultra wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me, personally? No. I didn't have to do anything. Mises did it himself. Rockwell, Koch, Blumbert, Ron Paul, etc co-opted it and amplified it. Mises did it to his own ideology. He was often employed by the Hapsburgs. Otto von Hapsburg was a sponsor of the Mises institute. His writings and ideas remain fringe because it comes with the baggage of racial politics and the monarchy stuff. Modern libertarian anarchists that…

It's all a fringe theory, until it isn't.

Ok, claiming it's a fringe theory isn't a strong criticism.

A theory that rejects empiricism and is based on private ownership, an idealized vision of markets, and limited state intervention is refuted by so many wars.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#725

Post by desumeku » Wed, Mar 05, 2025, 10:09 PM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #724

desumeku wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all a fringe theory, until it isn't.

Ok, claiming it's a fringe theory isn't a strong criticism. A theory that rejects empiricism and is based on private ownership, an idealized vision of markets, and limited state intervention is refuted by so many wars.

Which wars, specifically?

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#726

Post by franktankbank » Wed, Mar 05, 2025, 10:19 PM UTC

nosianu wrote: post #437

ryandamm wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has major structural weaknesses in its economy that are currently overshadowed by the US cr*pping its own and its allies’ pants. Specifically: there is not much of a home grown consumer economy; they have driven growth too heavily on exports and infrastructure build, leading to a massive overhang in building, a housing bubble that is teetering dangerously close to unwinding, and a major shortage of domestic con…

Again this focus on the financials, exactly what is criticized. What do they matter when they have sooo much of the real economy , of the world's manufacturing? On the one hand you have a bunch of virtual numbers, on the other one you have a large number of top factories, scientists and engineers (they days of copying are long past). You would go with the virtual numbers if you could choose? Even if finance completel…

China has to flip a money switch and woops now they have a middle class.

Everyone else?

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#727

Post by insane_dreamer » Wed, Mar 05, 2025, 10:20 PM UTC

> The main product made by the US is the dollar,

Very good point and one that not a lot of people understand.

There is also a tipping point at which governments will look elsewhere for a reserve and trading currency. Yes, today the USD is king, but that's in part because China's efforts to make the RMB a reserve and trade currency are half-hearted as they conflict with its efforts to retain an iron control over its currency exchange rate.

If the USD loses its preeminant status as _the_ global currency, the US is in very deep trouble.

This plays into the Middle East in ways that many people don't realize. The Gulf countries only sell their oil for USD (in exchange for protection from the US). The US has a very big stake in that continuing to be the case. Now granted, they are less important than they used to be because of fracking, but still a major player. (Some people say the invasion of Iraq was because Sadaam threatened to start selling oil for EUR instead of USD. I don't know if that's true or not, but it's definitely a plausible reason.)

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#728

Post by throwawayq3423 » Wed, Mar 05, 2025, 10:21 PM UTC

cookiemonsieur wrote: post #373

tokioyoyo wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I swear, “Chinese collapse” has been on the news headlines since 2000s. At some point people need to give up on the idea that their system doesn’t work. Yes, it sucks from our perspective, because we would have less rights and freedom. But quality of life of an average Chinese has been increasing YoY, despite some hiccups. They obviously screw up big time (pandemic lockdowns, current above average youth unemployment)…

It's a coping mechanism that needs to be parroted to keep the people in the west from questioning the status quo. "Look china/russia/iran/india bad ! Sure, we're not doing well and your quality of life is eroding year on year but hey ! In china you can't question tienanmen square so there's that" It's sad, but as long as people continue to believe in this mythology of "absolute freedom", it will continue to work.

I don't know anyone trying to move to china/russia/iran/india. The outflows however continue to be extensive.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#729

Post by throwawayq3423 » Wed, Mar 05, 2025, 10:23 PM UTC

tokioyoyo wrote: post #229

throwaway2037 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The majority of American households in the poorest US states are doing better than the majority of Europeans. I'm so tired of this trope on HN. It comes up over and over again, but never considers non-economic quality of life issues. Take for example public schools: They are awful in poor US states, and good-to-excellent in most highly developed European nations.

I swear, none of these people have been to Louisiana, West Virginia, or any of the empty-looking cities that used to be lively 50 years ago. And I’m saying this as a person who isn’t American, but wanted to check it out myself before I made assumptions about the world.

Also GPD per capita is a terrible measure of standard of life considering 40k in Louisiana when you need to pay for most of health care education etc. isn't that much.

The average life in these countries is undeniably better, even if poorer on paper.

Re: The Demoralization is just Beginning

#730

Post by bitsage » Wed, Mar 05, 2025, 10:30 PM UTC

tokioyoyo wrote: post #721

coolThingsFirst wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just money. There's another aspect which the US has that edges out the competition. The fact that everyone is treated as an American in the place without racism/xenophobia. This is a huge benefit over impenetrable countries like Denmark/Netherlands.

Half of your country actively rallies on the idea of sending back Chinese, Indians, Mexicans and etc. I think you just live in a bubble or educated circles where that’s bot tolerated, but that’s not the experience of every single immigrant.

Immigrants from the Global South definitely have it worse in his examples, the Denmark and Netherlands, where even liberal parties have turned against immigration. The Republicans want to deport illegal immigrants, starting with those who have criminal records, they haven’t pursued anything as perverse as Denmark’s “Ghetto Law”. PVV’s platform in the Netherlands is self-explanatory.