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"Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

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Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#721

Post by meristohm »

globnomulous wrote: post #388
fjjjrjj wrote: post #246

[flagged]

> I am independent and not a Democrat or a Republican because they are two sides of the same coin. The only sense in which this is true: the GOP are fascist, racist authoritarians who have waged a decades-long war on the middle and lower class; the Democrats aren't. If you think the Democrats and GOP are equally bad, you're out of your mind.

I agree that they are not equally bad, and- Democrats since Carter have bowed to influence from neoliberal capitalists, and capitalism is is a "boom-bust-quit" cycle, which I see as narrow-minded and selfish. Clinton got away with undoing the 1933 Glass-Stiegel Act (separating stock market and banking? financial regulation to reduce boom-bust amplitude, anyway) in 1999 by selling a "third way" that was really just watered-down Reaganomics (neoliberal capitalism, following the Heritage Foundation's Mandate for Leadership). Neither Obama nor Biden did enough to prevent oligrarchy, eithe, though under Biden the value of future lives was increased a bit. All the Republican presidents have done more harm, though. I'm really disheartened by this trend, and one little upside is that I'm bonding & bridging with local people, because it gives me a sense of meaning and efficacy. HN is my only social media outlet, and I only dip my toes in now and then.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#722

Post by heresie-dabord »

timoth3y wrote: post #651
arunabha wrote: post #503

In general, people are going to interpret this EO with their own lens. Unsurprisingly, reasonable people may disagree on the merits of the EO as a whole. However this part of the EO is pretty concerning > 'The President and the Attorney General, subject to the President’s supervision and control, shall provide authoritative interpretations of law for the executive branch' and later > 'No employee of the executive bra…

Even with a highly sympathetic Supreme Court it is hard to imagine this EO standing. It goes against the foundation of not only US law, but couple of hundred years of international democratic tradition in which allegiance is not to a person, but to the nation itself. US civil servants and military alike swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution not the president or their commander. Illegal orders are not o…

> it is hard to imagine this EO standing

There are many things that I thought would not survive the scrutiny of good people within the system of checks and balances.

But here were are. It seems that "good people within the system of checks and balances" were the only obstacle to absolute power.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#723

Post by twoodfin »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #711
jtc331 wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What problem, other than judicial review, does it solve for the executive branch? It’s fairly obvious on its face the concern of the EO is not judicial review but about agencies that nominally are past of the branch the President heads determining interpretations of law contrary to what the head of the executive desires. And, it does genuinely seem weird to have an executive branch where the head of that branch doe…

> ...heads determining interpretations of law contrary to what the head of the executive desires. Is the head of the executive an expert in all things? And capable of communicating those expert desires with perfect clarity? Why have courts if the executive head can sort out all legal nuance themselves?

The Constitution is explicit that all executive power is vested in the president.

Article III courts can “sort out all legal nuance”, but the power remains with the president.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#724

Post by drawkward »

jpadkins wrote: post #224
KittenInABox wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, it makes sense that the federal branch that manages interest rates is independent of the president. Didn't we have a whole thing where Trump couldn't force rate increases or decreases back in 2020? Do we really want Trump to declare interest rate changes via tweeting or whatever? What about things like drug approvals? I don't want Trump to ban certain drugs just because they didn't donate to his campaign. I…

> it makes sense that the federal branch that manages interest rates is independent of the president. You left out who the federal reserve is controlled by. It's not completely independent right? In its current form, it is owned and controlled by regional federal reserves which are controlled by the banks. You are advocating for the corporate bank control of the money supply (and interest rates). One definition of fa…

>One sign of oligarchy is when corporations control the regulation of their industry.

Literally DOGE

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#725

Post by mopsi »

agent281 wrote: post #688
spacechild1 wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> setting up the president as the sole power center is an inherently unstable system Only if there is a transition of power. If power stays in the same hands, the system can be very stable - and not in a good way.

Trump is pretty old at this point. Even if he decided to go full dictator, how long does he have? Maybe 5 to 10 years? I don't think it would be quite as "stable" as Putin's Russia.

Most of HN is probably too young to remember him, but Trump seems closer to Putin's predecessor Boris Yeltsin from 30 years ago. They have flamboyant and unpredictable public personas in common. Yeltsin also loved public performances, media attention, and direct engagement with large crowds. He often made chaotic decisions based on gut feeling and instincts rather than any clear strategy. Over time, alcoholism made Yeltsin increasingly dysfunctional. His health deteriorated and he was frequently absent. His inner circle, which included powerful billionaires, selected a reliable young successor to maintain their grip and negotiated Yeltsin's resignation in exchange for legal immunity for himself and his family. That successor was Vladimir Putin, a relatively unknown and bureaucratic head of Russia's version of the CIA/FBI. Once in power, Putin systematically outmaneuvered those billionaires who had expected him to be loyal, and played them against each other to gain absolute personal control over the country.

Trump is a known quantity. His destructiveness is limited by his inability to maintain focus. I'd be much more worried about who follows him. Will they represent a return to decency, or will it be someone just as destructive but far more disciplined - like Putin?

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#726

Post by IAmGraydon »

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #168
dartos wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon Musk’s entire net worth is tied up in stocks. If Tesla crashed, so would Elon’s power.

You've got me hoping for a massive market correction now.

March 18 :)

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#727

Post by IAmGraydon »

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #168
dartos wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon Musk’s entire net worth is tied up in stocks. If Tesla crashed, so would Elon’s power.

You've got me hoping for a massive market correction now.

March 18. A correction, however, is not the proper word.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#728

Post by throw16180339 »

skc wrote: post #299

I think it's highly likely that the Democratic party will never govern the United States again. Every single move the current government is making increasingly seems to be a clever way to stack the chips in their favor in perpetuity. We seem to be living though the backstory of how some far-off sci-fi civilization came to be, replete with greedy tech corps in the ears and pockets of narcissistic leaders. The irony is…

It's an open question whether elections will be held, but demographics also make it much harder for Democrats to be elected after 2030 (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/democrats-future-crisi...).

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#729

Post by refurb »

dragonwriter wrote: post #699
refurb wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This EO eliminates the concept of an illegal order since the law would be whatever the executive interprets it to be. How do you come to that to conclusion, especially in the context of the EO? This EO doesn't change the Constitution's requirement that the President "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed". I'm not a lawyer but I would interpret this EO to say "it is the job of the President to execute the la…

> "these subordinates must still execute based on the President's interpretation, not their own". Yes, this is a problem, because it would mean that if the President (for simplicity, the order also specified the AG, but it doesn't really change the issue) had an opinion on the law, and the courts issued an order to an executive officer such as a department head in a lawsuit contrary to that interpretation, the depart…

> the department head would remain bound by the Presidential interpretation until the President relented

I don't know what you mean by "bound"?

The President, EOs and the exective branch are not immune from court decisions.

If a court rules again an EO, the President would need to abide by that court decision. As per this EO, the department head would do what the President wanted (align to the court order), and would thus be in compliance with the court order.

In the case the President decides to ignore the court order, the department head has an option - do what the President says or do what the court says. If they decided to do what the President says they would also be in violation of the court order. If they did what the court said, they would likely be fired.

It's not like this EO really changes the situation? Before this EO a department head would have the same choices and face the same risk of being fired.

> Sec. 7 is so ridiculous on its face that, while I am sure the Administration seriously does want to impose as much of this control as it can get away with

I'm not sure what you mean? Why is it ridiculous that an agency which derives it's authority from the executive be able to ignore the head of the executive's interpretation of the law? Who would they be accountable to if not the US President? Nobody?

There are no "independent agencies" under the US Constitution. All agencies exist under the purview of the President. What Section 7 says is "no executive agency employee may make an independent interpretation of a law outside that determined by the head of the executive".

This is entirely aligned with prior US Supreme Court decisions that the US President has sole authority over the Executive Branch.

I'm not sure we'd want to have an unelected executive agencies that is unaccountable to head of the executive branch. That just wouldn't even make sense.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#730

Post by IAmGraydon »

rchaud wrote: post #567
Zamaamiro wrote: post #258

This EO, combined with his proclamation that "He who saves the country does not violate any law" paint a very concerning picture. This has, historically speaking, been the language of tyrants. No President is above the law, nor does the President "interpret" the law; that is the domain of the Judiciary. “Wherever law ends, tyranny begins”

"He who saves the country" sounds suspiciously close to the "Founder Mode" thinking that Valley CEOs have been bandwagoning behind.

It’s a quote from Napoleon Bonaparte. The funny part is that Napoleon soon found out he was completely wrong.
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