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Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

construction-physics.com

721–730 of 799 posts

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#721

If there is one industry that is the most resistant to change, it's the construction industry. There are still people who have been roofing for 50 years and refuse to change a single thing they do and learned 50 years ago. Saying a bunch of glulam will solve the issue is just incorrect. Wood is fantastic material. But using half a forest to build a 2000sqft house is certainly not the direction we should be going, we…

> There are still people who have been roofing for 50 years and refuse to change a single thing they do and learned 50 years ago. This is at best a huge exaggeration. For one thing, roofing is not a 50-year career. If you know any 70 year old roofers, they've either been retired or moved on to other things decades ago - the toll that roofing takes on a body makes it a 10-15 year career at best. Secondly, I've been wo…

> This is at best a huge exaggeration. For one thing, roofing is not a 50-year career. If you know any 70 year old roofers, they've either been retired or moved on to other things decades ago - the toll that roofing takes on a body makes it a 10-15 year career at best.

The person who taught me how to lay asphalt shingles 20 years ago has now been doing it around 50 years. I know a number of roofers who have been doing it 20 to 25 years. The toll on the body probably isn't as bad as you think.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#722

People debating about what kind of housing to build are getting ahead of themselves. The housing crisis is intentional. Homeowners demand the value of their home keep going up and they vote. They way to do that is to keep supply lower than demand. The first step to fixing the housing crisis isnt to figure out what kind of housing to build, it's to convince enough of the voting population there is a housing crisis tha…

Doesn't matter what you do, some places are more desirable than others to live in, and the end up attracting a premium. > Homeowners demand the value of their home keep going up and they vote. Bypassing the will of the voters is ... difficult. It's not impossible to force your moral mores onto voters who don't want it, but it sure ain't easy, and it ain't easy for good reason! > The first step to fixing the housing c…

While I agree with your general premise, I'm not convinced that remote work is the driver we should rely on. As a peer comment mentioned, infrastructure is a weak point right now, and remote work would add another dynamic that would make the situation more risky instead of less. Up front though, I should clarify I am a huge proponent FOR remote work. The rest of this is focused on why remote work should not be a foundation to build American housing on.

Prior to the normalizing of remote work and cloud computing, the infrastructure risks that a company needed to consider were related to hubs. Cloud computing moved a lot of the processing out of the hub, which is good from a risk perspective. This leaves the need to ensure the infrastructure related to workers accessing the computing is resilient.

If remote work becomes the foundation we building our cities on, we now expose our companies to the additional infrastructure problem related to internet connectivity while not resolving the connectivity issues inherent in the other grids of roads, power, and water. This is fine for companies that are natively born to this, but this is dangerous for the existing large cap companies and governments that are not.

And just as we're pushing for an increase in remote work, we are also in a period of time where our infrastructure is regularly attacked remotely.

Again, this is not to say remote work is bad. There's just a lot of transformation that needs to occur and I personally feel we should not take a darwinian approach to this when state and local governments are involved.

The instability we would introduce through this would likely lead to corporate funded infrastructure being stood up to ensure remote workers maintain access to cloud computing. I believe the company town concept [0] would make a comeback.

My main fear is that we would inadvertently create remote private corporate fiefdoms that would lead to corporate scrip [1] being used for local goods and services and non-transferable to other regions. The flexibility of remote work would, if my fears are realized, lead to a world of less flexibility than we have today. Not more.

I don't know what a better driver is though. How does one generate desire for a traditionally undesireable location?

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#723
post #96

If there is one industry that is the most resistant to change, it's the construction industry. There are still people who have been roofing for 50 years and refuse to change a single thing they do and learned 50 years ago. Saying a bunch of glulam will solve the issue is just incorrect. Wood is fantastic material. But using half a forest to build a 2000sqft house is certainly not the direction we should be going, we…

Honestly, if I had to choose between buying a house built 50 years ago, or one today - I personally would take the older one. Nothing scares me more (relative to owning a house) than buying a brand new one. If it has been around for fifty years, it has been tested - may have some things wrong with them, but you usually know what you are dealing with and usually the skill was better and materials better. Heck, my pare…

There are many 50+ year old homes that are basically held up with thoughts and prayers. Many of the building methods and materials were very questionable. I would not recommend buying an old house in the USA without a thorough inspection by someone who works on old houses regularly. Many are fine, many are death traps.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot upvote this enough. We ruined today through decades of car centric planning, we have to give the future something better.

This whole chain is a series of ideas that will never happen.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/13/biden-infras... ("Biden pledges billions to rebuild cities ‘torn apart’ by highways decades ago")

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter what you do, some places are more desirable than others to live in, and the end up attracting a premium. > Homeowners demand the value of their home keep going up and they vote. Bypassing the will of the voters is ... difficult. It's not impossible to force your moral mores onto voters who don't want it, but it sure ain't easy, and it ain't easy for good reason! > The first step to fixing the housing c…

Your alternative is more sprawl that will need to be supported by more new infrastructure that we already struggle to build out and maintain? I think we need to keep looking.

It's either more sprawl or a new high density city from scratch.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#726
Playing devil's advocate here. What causes housing shortage - more demand than supply. What causes more demand? - more people.

IMO an ever increasing population isn't a good thing if the economy can't absorb them at an equilibrium of demand and supply.

Canada a population of 40M bringing in 1M population in an year was a terrible move. Great for house prices but it takes it's toll.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#727

I think that construction timber benefit as a Carbon sequester is too often downplayed or simply ignored while it could be significant. Timber has many advantages compared to concrete, including longevity. The housing shortage won’t last forever thanks to demography, but we’ll need to replace many badly aging buildings anyway, and it takes time to grow trees and build the whole infrastructure around this construction…

Ability for timber to sequester carbon is really complicated. Most studies that arrive at positive conclusions for industry ignore land-use change associated emissions. I.e razing an old-growth forest only to plant plantation trees. Old growth forests sequester carbon in the soil and their roots. They also allow for an ecosystems that itself sequester carbon (various bacteria). Forestry IS not currently sustainable managed. All the IKEA and FSC scandals attest to that. European old growth forests are for some reason disappearing.

It's really irresponsible to gesture at this vague idealist future when the present is anything but. Yes, technically wood sequesters carbon. Yes, when trees rot and decompose they release carbon. Yes, if you turn the tree into timber or furniture that carbon will be then locked for very least couple decades.

No, forestry is not sustainably managed. Nowhere close. Europeans are razing down their old growth forests for heating. And wood pellets have higher carbon emissions than coal per unit of energy produced. See NYTimes coverage: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/09/07/world/europe/...

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#728

I think that construction timber benefit as a Carbon sequester is too often downplayed or simply ignored while it could be significant. Timber has many advantages compared to concrete, including longevity. The housing shortage won’t last forever thanks to demography, but we’ll need to replace many badly aging buildings anyway, and it takes time to grow trees and build the whole infrastructure around this construction…

Wood does not last longer than concrete. We’ve got concrete around from thousands of years ago and you can make it self-healing.

It is to be said though that rebar in concrete does not last. It is also to be said concrete industry is highly innovative and there are alternatives in the market and in R&D to steel reinforcement. Fiber-reinforced concrete for example.

All the old structures that still are here used concrete without steel reinforcement. We also have such structures today. Dams are made out of roller compacted concrete that don't use steel. Those structures last hundreds of years. There's also shotcrete which is used to stabilize soil.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can just ignore factors if they don't explain everything? No, we just can't rely on them to explain everything! As you purport. Only 33% of the homeless suffer from mental illness, and it certainly is not a strong predictor as to why rates are high in some cities but not others. That's the data. > Affordability is a moot point for people in these categories It matters to everyone, but even if we pretend it doesn…

"that's 67% percent of the homeless." The data does not support that. You cannot simply subtract 33 from 100 and claim affordability is the primary factor. Mental illness is not the only factor affecting employability. You have substance abuse, criminal records, etc that all prevent people from finding employment.

> You have substance abuse, criminal records, etc that all prevent people from finding employment.

Those all respectively represent a small fraction of the whole, and there's usually overlap. You cannot add them all up as though they are completely separate parts of that 100%.

Ultimately affordability is the primary factor, it's indisputable.

Re: Mass timber is great, but it will not solve the housing shortage

#730

People debating about what kind of housing to build are getting ahead of themselves. The housing crisis is intentional. Homeowners demand the value of their home keep going up and they vote. They way to do that is to keep supply lower than demand. The first step to fixing the housing crisis isnt to figure out what kind of housing to build, it's to convince enough of the voting population there is a housing crisis tha…

Why do housing prices go up? Partially inflation. But mostly because purchasing a house and renting it out is massively profitable, state subsidized, and a safe way to invest a store of wealth. Owners of capital seek out niches with good risk:value ratios. Look at housing prices over the last 5 years: even if your investment home sat empty, it's probably gone up 70% or more in price. Rent is just profit on top of those (also state-subsidized, way more than any other asset class!) asset gains. Mortgages that are all-but-guaranteed by the state allow even the least-qualified investors to massively leverage themselves into multiple million dollar properties.

The housing market is broken because moneymakers would rather maximize profits and render everyone else homeless than participate in a functional society. Consider a world where investors own 80% of housing in the USA: would they rent it all out? Or would the small number of corporations collaborate to keep _most_ units off the market, massively spiking the cost of housing and increasing the value of their portfolios? Our healthcare market suggests that when it comes to necessities, people are willing to pay literally any price. And our society has become more and more unequal in the past couple of decades, with the top 1% controlling as much capital as the bottom 50%. Logic dictates that the small number of that 1%, or perhaps the top 10%, if forced to pay insane rents for housing, will provide more profit than setting rent prices that everyone can afford.

I don't think we should vilify the average homeowner who doesn't want to end up underwater on their mortgage. We should vilify the government that has allowed market forces to increasingly distort the residential real estate market, to the point where we're starting to squeeze essential jobs like teacher, firefighter, waitress, and nurse out of the market entirely. Both for rentals and purchases.

Right now it doesn't matter if we double the US housing supply in the next year: it'll still get bought up by investors with far deeper pockets than the average family, because those investors have a strong incentive to prop up the real estate bubble -- they've got more skin in the game than anyone else. And they're less discerning, waiving inspections and paying 10% over asking in cash because if the house turns out to be a lemon they'll just absorb it into margins. Or write it off as a business expense -- depreciation!

The US housing market needs a massive overhaul to disincentivize residential property ownership for anything other than owner-dwellings, co-ops, and small, local landlords (to provide flexible rental options for those who move around too much to justify one-time buying costs). Much like a monopoly or oligopoly in the any other industry, large market forces in the housing industry have deeper pockets, more lawyers, more lobbyists, and more time than any small-time player. And those large market forces have a tendency to squeeze everyone else out.

Housing should, first and foremost, put a roof over the head of every person in the country before anyone profits at all. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either directly or indirectly profiting from homelessness.

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