Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#721

Post by jhugo » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 11:13 PM UTC

jraph wrote: post #693

nektro wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

debating about how they run the store is totally valid, but there being only one store absolutely does make iOS safer overall

The vast majority of Android users use the Play Store (or the Amazon thing) exclusively. So Android is not different than iOS in this regard. The vanishingly few remaining users use F-Droid (sometimes exclusively), which is probably the safest app store on Earth, with GNU/Linux and *BSD distros' base repositories. Open source only, reproducible builds with public recipes written independently, trackers removed (becau…

> The vast majority of Android users use the Play Store (or the Amazon thing) exclusively

Are you sure? Android phones are pretty big in China, which is by far the world's largest smartphone market, and I guess Play Store & "the Amazon thing" (I don't remember the name either) adoption there is close to 0%. Anecdotally I have noticed a lot of people using phone vendor app stores in India (the second largest market, though half the number of devices as China) and Indonesia (another huge market). Taken together I'm very skeptical that Play Store + Amazon have a majority of Android users.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#722

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 11:13 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #704

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly when there are better alternatives. For example, put a physical hardware switch on the inside of the device that disables new stores from being added. Now you can set up your technically disinclined relatives with Apple's store, and a couple of others you trust if it pleases you, then flip the switch and they can't get into trouble because they can't add others. Move the switch back and the device won't…

What happens when Meta, X, Google et al. move to their own stores where they distribute apps unencumbered by Apple's privacy policies? Your relatives then contact you and insist that you flip the switch for them so they can install Facebook and Instagram from the Meta store so they can continue scrolling cat memes. I have yet to hear a convincing argument (from multi-store proponents) about how to prevent this. If th…

You tell them to use the service's web page because their app isn't available from a trustworthy source. And if their web page sucks, you encourage them to use a competing service whenever possible and only use the inconvenient one when strictly necessary. Which, as others do the same, pressures the service to do what you want and put their app in the existing store.

This is the same thing that Apple does if they refuse to follow the process as it is, right? You're being insufficiently stubborn. And excessively dismissive if you think users making choices have no power. There are demonstrably people committed to having it their way:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685700

Unless you think tech companies have gotten too big and people don't have a choice anymore. If you have a monopoly, what you want is not another monopoly to fight them over which gets to fleece you, it's to smash them both by any available means. One of which is resistance through personal choices, one of which is... anti-trust enforcement.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#723

Post by jijijijij » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 11:15 PM UTC

kayodelycaon wrote: post #662

jijijijij wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't have to believe into what they write. Imagine the level of sociopathy required for the job. Truly soulless, despicable work, but I almost feel sorry for them. Like, could they even form an authentic human connection anymore, when they have sold out, given up so much humanity to an indifferent market creature? How would you feel about an "I love you" coming from someone payed to lie and manipulate?

Personally, I’d write it if it was my job. And then bitch about it to my friends and we can roll our eyes. Just like any stupid thing I’m asked to do. Actually I’d be much happier writing that than dealing with ticket YJ-2934 hanging out in Jira. I don’t need to be a sick, deprived sociopath. Then again, I still happily buy and use Apple products. They’ll get over their pointless tempter tantrum at some point. I hope…

*swipes left*

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#724

Post by orangecat » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 11:15 PM UTC

nucleardog wrote: post #199

afavour wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> so much of this is focused on the developers, and that is the problem here. How many users actually want this? How many users actually understand the issues at stake, though? I don't say that to be patronizing but it's a nuanced, thorny problem. I bet if you simply asked "do you think it should be allowed to download porn apps?" a good number of users (if asked anonymously!) would say yes. How many users understand…

> To my mind all of this comes back to the free market: you're free to ignore all this stuff and keep getting everything through the App Store. If you and many others do the same thing then the market will prove the idea to be a dud. This only really creates no impact to users if Apple were to force all apps to also be listed in their App Store. If, e.g., Facebook were to decide they don’t like existing App Store pol…

What happens when the app for some piece of hardware you bought is on a 3rd party store?

What happens if the app is only available for iOS? What happens when all your friends use iMessage and Facetime? Apple isn't saving us from platform lock-in; they're benefiting hugely from it.

I don’t own any other Apple hardware, but bought my phone (after a long line of Android hardware starting from the original ADP1) specifically to not have to deal with any of this. I don’t have the time and energy to deal with any of this anymore.

What is "this"? My Android phone works fine with zero maintenance, but when I occasionally want to do hacky things with it I can.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#725

Post by sircastor » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 11:24 PM UTC

klaustopher wrote: post #13

I am really impressed how much time and effort Apples legal department spends to find every single loop hole in the wording of the DMA. The 50ct per install for alternate app stores, 50ct per install for non-App Store apps after the millionth install, 1 million dollar in securities for alternate app stores, etc all follow the words of the DMA, but not the spirit. I am really interested to see the European Commissian…

> I am really impressed how much time and effort Apples legal department spends to find every single loop hole in the wording of the DMA.

Maybe this is an American trait, but I would be surprised at any company that wouldn't be doing this. A law has been made that affects our business: How do we comply with the law with as little impact as possible to us?

Some of the comments here seem to expect Apple to simply give up, as though a parent just walked in the room and said "You better do it or else."

If it's really the spirit of the law that counts, then the law should require no specificity. A simple "Treat everyone fairly, installs can come from anywhere" would be sufficient.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#726

Post by ambichook » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 11:25 PM UTC

Terretta wrote: post #395

tombert wrote: post #384

It baffles the mind that having exactly one marketplace with rent-seeking level fees that neither users nor developers can opt out of doesn't violate some kind of antitrust law in the United States. Though it looks like the EU iPhone users are only in a marginally better position.

Tell your mind it's an appliance/console.* Still baffled? Because nobody seems baffled they can't run arbitrary software on their Amazon Echo Show, AppleTV, Xbox, Playstation, or Switch. * If your mind is struggling with this, you might need a bicycle for the mind to help. ;-) But seriously, Apple's brand and value prop since original Mac has been to toasterize compute and make it friendly approachable and non-fiddly…

didnt sony lose a class action lawsuit over the ps3 and the ability to run linux on it?

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#727

Post by satellite2 » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 11:26 PM UTC

ho_schi wrote: post #599

crotchfire wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> allowed them to split up (Baby Bells) That's some pretty baldfaced revisionism you've got going on there. They were ordered to do this by a court: https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=120938923478579...

Thanks for your comment. Maybe I’m wrong in that part. Your link sadly doesn’t work and shows an 404. I’m a little confused because the Wikipedia says: AT&T itself recommended a divestiture structure in which it would be broken up into regional subsidiaries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._AT%26T_(1982)

>The FCC also found evidence during this period that AT&T was overcharging consumers for physical products that had been manufactured by its equipment subsidiary Western Electric, which was itself a monopoly, and using the resulting monopoly profits to subsidize its landline network operations, which was a violation of antitrust law.[5]

These developments, along with an appreciation of new technologies and business models for telephone service that were becoming available, convinced American regulators that AT&T should no longer be tolerated as the natural monopoly in that marketplace.[6] A plan to break up the company into smaller components was proposed by the United States Department of Justice starting in 1974, citing authority under the Sherman Antitrust Act to reduce the power of a monopoly firm.[1] AT&T itself recommended a divestiture structure in which it would be broken up into regional subsidiaries.

Given the context it seems they were fried anyway and were just able to negotiate how the split would be done

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#728

Post by __d » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 11:27 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #604

gcanyon wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little bit playing devil's advocate here, but: concerning how? > you have to have at least one million first installs annually on iOS to even qualify That's not what the site says at all? "Membership in the Apple Developer Program includes one million first annual installs per year for free for apps distributed from the App Store, alternative marketplaces, and/or Web Distribution." That seems to indicate that t…

It's less "concerning" and more "flagrantly ridiculous". A company has to pay Apple half a euro for every executable download from the company's own website? If Microsoft tried this shit with Windows people would be apoplectic.

And yet, it's pretty common in commercial software and in other industries.

For instance, my application uses a particular commercially-licensed software library. I have to pay a per-copy-sold royalty to the vendor.

Or I write a video game for a console: I have to pay a percentage of my revenue to the console vendor.

Or I use a particular algorithm (eg. an AV codec) and I have to pay patent royalties.

So if your application uses Apple's provided frameworks, and they choose to charge you a license fee (discounted to zero for your first million sales), you're calling it "flagrantly ridiculous"?

It's not: it's a wide-spread, standard practice. It might suck, sure. But hyperbole helps no-one here.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#729

Post by andy_ppp » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 11:27 PM UTC

dns_snek wrote: post #575

CharlesW wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's per year, not per install. All subsequent installs/updates in that year do not incur additional charges. > "Developers will pay a CTF of €0.50 for each first annual install over one million in the past 12 months."

That really doesn't change their point. It's only slightly less ridiculous, but still completely unworkable and obviously against the spirit of the regulation. I say spirit of the regulation because I'm not a lawyer and don't want to make absolute claims about the law as written, and I trust the EU to close any loopholes that may arise.

I’ve actually come to the conclusion Apple has stopped behaving rationally here, they are behaving quite erratically.

Re: Apple announces ability to download apps directly from websites in EU

#730

Post by brikym » Tue, Mar 12, 2024, 11:28 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #673

redundantly wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For your safety, of course. I know they have ulterior motives for their walled garden, but this is a product of said garden. The App Store is by far much safer to use than Google's Play Store. Plus the parental controls on android are essentially non-existent. I'm happy in this walled garden.

The premise of a walled garden is to keep unwanted things out, not to imprison you inside. Apple maintaining a store where they've vetted everything in it is fine, and if you like you can refuse to install anything from outside of it. That doesn't justify them prohibiting you from installing anything from outside of it. It should be up to you. If you wanted to, you could even configure your phone to not add any new s…

A better metaphor would be the shops at an airport. The monopoly airport fleece the shops with high rent and in turn the shops fleece their customers with high prices.