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Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

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Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#721

Post by dwaite »

zmmmmm wrote: post #701
morcheeba wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the console manufacturer is actually adding significant value and taking a fair (or not so fair) margin in exchage. I don't get this. What does a game console manufacturer do that Apple does not? Both provide hardware, system-level APIs, dev systems, developer support, customers. In the old days, game manufacturers didn't even provide a sales channel. And when you say Apple provides nothing, my above list is pretty…

They create dedicated hardware designed to excel at gaming and then sell it at or near cost. In a very real sense they create the market that games producers sell into, and the business model is explicitly centered around those software sales. They participate in marketing, branding, etc. There's a genuine holistic value exchange that happens. Apple's value exchange is almost negative. They invest nothing in gaming a…

> They create dedicated hardware designed to excel at gaming and then sell it at or near cost. In a very real sense they create the market that games producers sell into, and the business model is explicitly centered around those software sales.

So like Apple releasing the iPhone, increasing graphics performance by double-digit percentages consistently year after year?

> They participate in marketing, branding, etc. There's a genuine holistic value exchange that happens.

You would need to give me examples for non-AAA games of console makers providing exceptional value here. My understanding is that this is primarily the role of the publisher, not the console maker.

Apple does showcase _certain_ apps on stage at keynotes, during commercials, with prime placement on the App Store, promoting special events, and so on. This is the level of promotion that I'm used to with game consoles as well.

> Apple's value exchange is almost negative. They invest nothing in gaming as an industry, charge a premium for the hardware and then add burdensome restrictions on how the software is delivered.

What is Playstation's big investment into gaming as an industry, if not for the hardware and the platform creating an ecosystem for games the same way iPhone/iOS have?

Microsoft created DirectX the same way Apple created and promoted Metal. Could you elaborate on the differences?

> And then they try to take the same cut that authentic gaming ecosystem players have as their whole revenue source.

Yes, could you elaborate on what additional work console makers have done here to justify their cut that Apple hasn't?

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#722

Post by danShumway »

numbsafari wrote: post #650
wkat4242 wrote: post #609

Ummm lol. So now sideloading is allowed (with lots of costs associated mind you) and if someone wants to use it Apple will just kick them off the platform? :') So first malicious compliance with all the inflated costs and then they don't even allow people to use it. I really hope the EU will crack down on this BS and force Apple to allow real sideloading. But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago.

Call me when Xbox allows side loading.

Would anyone who's calling for iPhone sideloading be upset about Xbox sideloading? I wouldn't. By all means, let's regulate both Microsoft and Apple. The more the merrier.

I don't think I've ever looked at a video game console and thought, "I'm sure glad that I can't sideload games onto this." This is a slippery slope that I am happy to go down.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#723

Post by plandis »

pavlov wrote: post #693
zengid wrote: post #663

This is some spicy shit from Apple: > “In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them,” Schiller reminds the game maker in the letter dated February 23, 2024. “You also testified that Epic deliberately violated Apple’s rules, to make a point and for financial gain. More recently, you have described our DMA compliance as ‘hot garbage,’ a ‘horror show,’ and a ‘devious new instance of Mali…

Somehow I doubt that the EU competition authority will appreciate Apple’s logic that criticizing their implementation of pro-competition regulation is valid grounds for preventing a competitor from accessing said implementation. It’s like if your parents forced you to give a slice of your birthday cake to your little brother, and in spite you intentionally cut him a slice with no frosting. When he complains, you go:…

> In the past, Epic has entered into agreements with Apple and then broken them

That sounds like a legitimate reason to not do business with Epic to me?

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#724

Post by pjerem »

ethbr1 wrote: post #682
can16358p wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar here. I like their products, their design and don't have anything better to my needs. I even find some sense about this whole DMA thing to their respect. But their user hostility and "you are wrong we are always right and we never accept that we are wrong" kind of gaslighting attitude of them as a company really makes me lose trust in them as a customer. While I still use Apple devices, I wouldn't have though…

The reason I haven't bought into the Apple mobile ecosystem wholly is because of the power they could exert. My friends' counterarguments were always that they did not currently exert that power to the detriment of users. To which my reply was "Show me a few down quarters, missed growth targets, or a threat to one of their primary sources of revenue and see what they do." Any company should always be expected to path…

You are right and that’s something I knew when I bought. It’s not that I liked it but rather than in my opinion, it wasn’t better on the Android side (I mean, at least Apple don’t sell my health data). Windows is worse than everything else.

(In fact I’m really grateful that Linux is even existing because otherwise the situation would be catastrophic. But I digress)

The point is that now, Apple is exercising this control to (try to) actively defeat public regulators. I do believe It’s pretty serious when a company actively tries to circumvent the rules made by the public powers.

And I say that as someone who ideologically tolerates civil disobedience when needed. But corporations are not humans, they must respect the rules in all circumstances. Because respecting the stupid regulations and the stupid laws is the only thing that distinguishes them from mafioso systems.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#725

Post by dwaite »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #630
morcheeba wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the console manufacturer is actually adding significant value and taking a fair (or not so fair) margin in exchage. I don't get this. What does a game console manufacturer do that Apple does not? Both provide hardware, system-level APIs, dev systems, developer support, customers. In the old days, game manufacturers didn't even provide a sales channel. And when you say Apple provides nothing, my above list is pretty…

> What does a game console manufacturer do that Apple does not? Take it to the other extreme: what does a PC manufacturer do that Apple does not? Why not let Windows close down and take 30% on any program installed on Windows? Or go along with its old plans to enforce only signed Windows Store apps to be installed on Windows 12? It's ultimately just history and culture. We consider general purpose computing to be ope…

> Take it to the other extreme: what does a PC manufacturer do that Apple does not? Why not let Windows close down and take 30% on any program installed on Windows?

I mean, why not? They did so in the past (Windows 10 S).

I think it turned out to be a terrible business move on Microsoft's part that didn't pan out, but why would it be regulated against now?

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#726

Post by tracerbulletx »

Zambyte wrote: post #657
tracerbulletx wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaming consoles are not really special purpose anymore.

That's why I called them "general purpose computers that are marketed as special purpose computers".

Oh, my bad.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#727

Post by dwaite »

zmmmmm wrote: post #687
matwood wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> contributes nothing Other than cultivating a base of iOS users spending 7x more than Android users on apps[1]. That sounds like significant value to me and not dissimilar to what the console manufacturers pitch to developers. [1] https://9to5mac.com/2023/09/06/iphone-users-spend-apps/

Epic doesn't want those users. It is not asking for any placement in the app store. It just wants it's own users who have iPhones to be able to access its software which it will funnel to them through their own channel. Apple contributes nothing to cultivate the gaming market overall. No marketing, no investment, no PR, no subsidation of the hardware etc. Apple simply gets in the way, making it harder, adding restric…

and all Epic has to do is commit to honoring a contract (this time) to do that.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#728

Post by dns_snek »

swman wrote: post #358
layer8 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that Epic doesn’t want to be Apple’s customer in the first place. They want to publish iOS apps. The fact that this requires them to be an Apple customer is the core problem. Imagine if everyone wanting to publish a web app would have to be a customer of the respective browser vendors. Everyone complains about Google and Mozilla and Safari and Edge. Luckily, that doesn’t prevent us from having our web ap…

Then they should just not publish for iOS lol. Don’t like it? Don’t publish to it. As a consumer I want and like the tight restrictions apple puts on the App Store. It’s not like users can’t purchase stuff without paying the 30% premium added by developers to offset the apple tax. Just go to the website and buy there. And save the 30%. My parents who are older use iPhone. They don’t have to wade through trash like an…

The number of bad faith arguments here is impressive.

> Don’t like it? Don’t publish to it.

That's not how laws work, Epic have a perfectly valid complaint against Apple because Apple isn't complying with EU law. As far as valid outcomes go, Apple can either comply, face fines, or leave the EU market.

> As a consumer I want and like the tight restrictions apple puts on the App Store.

That's great, but it causes demonstrable harm to the proper functioning of our supposed "free market", so we've outlawed them.

> It’s not like users can’t purchase stuff without paying the 30% premium added by developers to offset the apple tax. Just go to the website and buy there. And save the 30%.

Except they ban you from even mentioning that this alternative exist. More harm to the free market.

> My parents who are older use iPhone. They don’t have to wade through trash like android play store. Most apps are good in the iOS store.

Nobody is forcing them to wade through alternative app stores. If most good apps are indeed on iOS, and Apple's fees are indeed reasonable, then those apps will stay in the iOS App Store. Nothing to worry about!

> If epic wants kids to buy more stuff have their parents pay the 30% premium. If your kid is glued to the phone I’m sure you enabled that and can continue enabling it. Sorry not sorry.

This legislation benefits everyone, not just Epic.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#729

Post by echelon »

zmmmmm wrote: post #707

In some ways it makes me question if it's impossible to have one without the other - can you have a company that is as obsessive about quality as Apple at the same time as one that won't attempt to exert monopolistic control over its whole ecosystem? Are these two sides of the same coin? I'd like to embrace something like the Vision Pro. But as long as it's an iPad strapped to your face fully locked to this controlle…

Apple views every instruction executing on iPhone as something they own, control, and tax.

It'd be cute if iPhone was a toy used by a million people. However, mobile computing has become a cornerstone of modern communications and societal function. You use these devices to book flights, buy goods, order food (at restaurants), date, do banking, send texts, emails, -- literally everything.

And Apple controls and taxes all of it. All the innovation. All the connections. Everything.

And they control how you write and deploy that software. It's a game of constantly jumping through hoops and stressing out over release trains.

With a press of a button, a change in policy, Apple can nuke your product from orbit. And there's not a thing you can do.

And Google, even with their "unlocked APK installs", isn't really any different.

This is a new kind of monopoly. A solid chunk of the connective tissue of our planet and species is controlled, taxed, and ruled over by two overlord companies.

I am so glad the Internet itself isn't like this. Except, these devices practically are the internet for many or most folks. So these to, in a way, do control and tax the internet.

Re: Apple terminates Epic Games developer account, calling it a 'threat' to iOS

#730

Post by [deleted] »

wkat4242 wrote: post #609

Ummm lol. So now sideloading is allowed (with lots of costs associated mind you) and if someone wants to use it Apple will just kick them off the platform? :') So first malicious compliance with all the inflated costs and then they don't even allow people to use it. I really hope the EU will crack down on this BS and force Apple to allow real sideloading. But anyway I've written Apple out of my life a long time ago.

[deleted]
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