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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#721

Post by Georgelemental »

ifdefdebug wrote: post #330
stoorafa wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s an interesting parallel, Gazan’s response is also borne of a history of oppression. Living with food insecurity, being an intergenerational refugee unable to return to home a few miles away, watching family members harmed, etc seems to motivate a lot of Palestinian behavior.

"being an intergenerational refugee" is one of the most absurd problems that exist in this conflict. Nobody should be a refugee just because their grandparents were. They should be plain citizens of whatever region they were born in. If we extrapolate this stance to other past conflicts, we'd have today tens of millions of German "intergenerational" refugees sitting in Germany and waiting for their return to their ho…

Yes, that's why the Palestinians need a proper state of their own, so the absurdity can end.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#722

Post by aluminum96 »

nicoburns wrote: post #165
iddan wrote: post #136

[flagged]

Other wars are discussed. There have been threads on Russia vs. Ukraine in recent months. Perhaps Israel look bad in the press because they are acting badly. It seems to me that Israel are unambiguously the stronger power in this conflict: they have are much stronger military, and additionally have the backing of the US and a bunch of other nations that would step in were Israeli territory under threat. And they are…

The problem with asking Israel to unilaterally tolerate rocket attacks, invasions, and attempted annihilations, is that that have already been doing that for 70 years. The never-ending attacks are a huge part of the reason Israel's political posture has become so radicalized, and the military response is so intense.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#723

Post by aluminum96 »

stoorafa wrote: post #189
iddan wrote: post #136

[flagged]

That’s interesting. I think it’s rich that Israel is a “victim” despite having nuclear arms and one of the most advanced militaries in the world, but there’s somehow still a need to torture villagers-turned-refugees en masse. Let alone the fact that antizionism is not antisemitism.

Palestinian citizens are absolutely victims of this conflict. But there are also real Israelis who have real rockets hit their houses and businesses every couple of years. And it's been this way for decades! These people are absolutely victims. Both can be true.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#724

Post by amluto »

ido wrote: post #237

Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas and want peace and a free Palestinian state according to the '67 borders. These would be the equivalents on the other side.

How is that the other side? Israeli- and Palestinian-Americans, for example, don’t have any real reason to be on opposite sides here. (Not to mention all the American Jews who aren’t actually Israeli.)

I’m reminded of an excellent Middle Eastern restaurant in California that I went to on occasion during the Second Intifada. The had Hebrew- and Arabic language newspapers. The patrons (I assume) mostly had some form of Middle Eastern or Jewish heritage, but I don’t really know which. The falafel sandwiches were fantastic. The only sides were things like tahini and harissa. As far as I know, basically everyone who ate there wanted peace and didn’t really want any particular group to “win” the ongoing conflict.

I think the owners were Lebanese-American, but it didn’t matter.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#725

Post by ashirusnw »

Hikikomori wrote: post #629
rehitman wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This statement is very uninformed. Isreal left Gaza very logn time ago. They had an election and Hamas came to power, and they never hold an election after. There is no land dispute between Isreal and Gaza (Unlike Westbank where there are serious disputes). The main problem is that Hamas and its supporter Iran consistentnly in word and in practice declared that want to wipe out and destroy Isreal. It is not about som…

Israel may have left but they have had a blockade since then, not just on their border but sea and air as well. UN considers it to be occupied territory, Israel controls food and water. Human rights organisations calls it an open air prison. Doesn't sound like a situation that would be fruitful for peace? Hamas was elected as Bush pushed for elections too early as he wanted to solve the situation before his term ende…

Israel supplies only a small percentage of Gaza water.

Israel left in 2005, the "blockade" (which ignores the third border with Egypt) started in 2007 after Hamas seized control and Israel found itself with an enemy worse than Fatah despite it's largest since the Sinai withdrawal to exchange land for peace.

Natanyahu "supporting" Hamas was a policy of containment (coupled with recent pre-Oct-7 increase in work permits to Israel amogst other overtures) and which led to the October 7th. Israelis think a ceasefire would result in resumption of containment and eventually another October 7th so no go.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#726

Post by settrans »

ido wrote: post #237

Plenty of Palestinians oppose Hamas and want peace and a free Palestinian state according to the '67 borders. These would be the equivalents on the other side.

In fact, public opposition to Hamas[0][1] is frequently cited[2] as a primary motivation for the 10/7 attack. Gazans widely viewed Hamas as corrupt and the main reason for their destitution, and overwhelmingly preferred Fatah leaders over Hamas (despite having installed Hamas primarily due to Fatah's perceived corruption).

The theory goes: if Hamas were to embarrass Israel on the public stage with a humiliating attack, this might provoke an overwhelmingly disproportionate response by Israel against Gaza, cementing the public perception of Gazans as the victims in the conflict even in light of the 10/7 aggression - and Hamas as their freedom fighters. This in turn would attract public sympathy for Hamas, bolstering their political prospects in Palestine, meanwhile derailing Saudi peace talks that might have resulted in formal recognition of the Palestinian Authority as the legitimate sovereigns. (Neutralizing peace talks between the two greatest enemies of one of Hamas's greatest benefactors, Iran, could only be viewed as a nice "plus").

[0] https://www.arabbarometer.org/media-news/survey-sheds-light-... [1] https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-sh... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMxHU34IgyY

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#727

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

w7 wrote: post #719
acdha wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I addressed the same point in a sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38620617 Basically, I think it comes down to options. After WWII, the average person in Germany or Japan wasn’t forced out of their home and livelihood, and the Marshall plan was quite effective at giving people peaceful options to be proud of. What I’m not seeing now is how Palestinians get something similar, and if you push people…

What do we consider "forced out of their home and livelihood". Allied bombing of Japan in WWII destroyed upwards of 3.4 million homes and rendered the areas unlivable for a period of time.

Also, areas of Germany were given to Poland and the Soviet Union post WWII and many Germans were displaced.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#728

Post by ignoramous »

nvm0n2 wrote: post #663
xg15 wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UN doesn't speak for the world, regardless of what they may claim. That might be true for Guterres but not for the GA. The delegations that voted were not directed by the UN but by their respective countries. No one forced them to vote for this. Israel itself gets its legitimacy from the UN resolution in 1949. > But why would anyone ask them to cease fire against an enemy that won't return the favour? My unders…

> so of course during such a ceasefire Hamas would have to stop the rocket attacks as well. But it is an absurd request, like calling for a ceasefire between Britain and Germany at the height of World War 2. Like "legitimacy" and "international law", the concept makes no sense when thought about clearly. It is war. Wars end with a believable long term peace, most commonly due to the absolute destruction of one side's…

> But it is an absurd request, like calling for a ceasefire between Britain and Germany at the height of World War 2.

Except, al-Qassam is not a regular military with weapons of mass destruction at its disposal. An overwhelming casualties have been civilians.

> A peace is meant to be lasting, which means people have to believe in its durability.

Just now I see Israelis calling for a war on Qatar, Iran, and Lebanon. Where does one find solution for this obsession with violence, if not in Tel Aviv? By dismantling the settlements in the West Bank and immediately moving to secure a state for the Palestinians?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#730

Post by nahumfarchi »

tsimionescu wrote: post #453
nahumfarchi wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I don't think that is a reasonable take at all. 1. This is warfare, not civil law. Hamas, which is the sovereign in Gaza (there has been no Israeli military presence there for years), commited an act of war in which hundreds were killed, raped, and kidnapped. Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen an…

You seem to be arguing from a bizarre perspective that Israel is the defender here. In reality, Israel is the aggressor, and Palestine is the state that has been under occupation and illegal blockade for decades. October 7th was an (illegal, abhorrent and criminal!) act of retaliation against previous Israeli aggressions, not an unprovoked attack. If Ukraine were to bomb a Russian city during the current war, no one…

In this certain case, it is. The aggressions (during this round) started on October 7th by Hamas. You can replace "defense" with "response" / "retaliation" / or "zionist agressions" if you're reading certain news sources. I will admit that the my background affected my word choice to some extent.

The history of this conflict is a lot more complex than the occupier/ occupied framing would imply. For one, there was a Jewish presence here for centuries, not to mention the ancient kingdom of Judea. But I find these discussions unconstructive usually since they seem to get into these "he hit me first" kind of arguments. I agree that a two state solution is what we should be striving for. Humans are creative, if the will was there, we would find a way to connect Gaza and the West Bank (tunnel/bridge/whatever), do some territory swaps as needed, divide Jerusalem, etc. The plans for this exist, it's the leadership that's failing (on both sides).

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