"Lighten up" • Hacker News Board

Re: "Lighten up"

#721

Post by MartinCron » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:34 PM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #569

MartinCron wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really easy to say that the world has become too politically correct when you're not the one offended. It's easy not to be offended when you're not in an isolated or alienated group. What's not too PC for you? Blackface minstrel shows? Cross burning? Swastikas? Effigy burnings? Many developers find stereotypes of "tech nerds" offensive. If the women in your office showed up with plaid shirts, pocket protectors,…

It's hard to know WTF is going to offend people. The result is a choice between potential opprobrium and insufferable blandness. This is how it happens: http://android.eonline.com/article.ftl?category=Latest+News&... I pretty sure DeNiro didn't burn any crosses.

It's hard to know WTF is going to offend people

Or, you can pay attention to what does offend people and not do those things again in the future. It's not realistic to expect to never offend people, but everyone has a responsibility to understand what their actions do for other people.

Re: "Lighten up"

#722

Post by arien » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:35 PM UTC

__abc wrote: post #704

mechanical_fish wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

I don't understand the "as a man" part. That's further propagating the problem. I'd rather we point out "sexist behavior" to help make it stop vs introduce an even more subtler sexist behavior In your senario: You, as a man, aware that she as a women, can get treated differently, so you will then treat her differently based on that. You see, you are still treating her differently, where ultimately, no one treats her…

Exactly. The moment we stop looking at "men" and "women" or "black" and "white" and start looking at "people" is when these things are truly sorted out.

Re: "Lighten up"

#723

Post by elptacek » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:36 PM UTC

__abc wrote: post #704

mechanical_fish wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

I don't understand the "as a man" part. That's further propagating the problem. I'd rather we point out "sexist behavior" to help make it stop vs introduce an even more subtler sexist behavior In your senario: You, as a man, aware that she as a women, can get treated differently, so you will then treat her differently based on that. You see, you are still treating her differently, where ultimately, no one treats her…

If I could upvote this twice, I would. The labels we use for each other are an elephant in the room. A lot of people came to this country and worked very hard to build it. Some by choice, others by duress. The ones who came by choice made mad bank and their descendants received all the benefits of a raised standard of living. Meanwhile, a great percentage of the descendants who came in shackles are still struggling to raise the standard of living for themselves and their families.

This has nothing to do with skin tone and everything to do with perception. Your feet follow your eyes.

Re: "Lighten up"

#724

Post by oodalolly » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:42 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #594

oodalolly wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood this question. "Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention?" Women wear low cut dresses because they feel good in them, because they feel they look good in them. Showing off your breasts, if you consider them an attractive part of you, is like showing off your face, or arms, or legs. This question is like asking, "Why do women brush their hair, if not to attract male atte…

Actually, women always get dressed with men in mind; it's just that it's so ingrained, they don't really think about it. Their concept of "looking good" is shaped by magazines and tv shows (still much more so that men, on average); and if you look at your average magazine, you'll see oozes of sex emanating from advertising and content. The concept of "looking good" in western society is equivalent to "looking sexy/de…

"Why would women's skirts emphasize one's ass otherwise?"

See, that's the problem. You're sexualizing a woman's ass. A woman doesn't automatically consider her ass to be something sexual. Straight men do. An ass is an ass, and the fact that a man finds my ass sexual is not my concern. Nor do I want to be told about it. But I do like how that skirt looks on my ass. For me. My comfort is the focus, not somebody else's hard-on.

I clearly don't deny there's sexism ingrained in most aspects of society, but fashion was not the greatest one to cite on your part. Most high fashion is where risks are taken to challenge what "sexy" (heterosexual man's version of sexy) is, and has less to do with being "attractive" and more about being "artistically beautiful." Does this turn you on? http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YPLSyaja5vU/R7Xqwvpw1YI/AAAAAAAAAh...

And lastly, to say that caring about your appearance for self-confidence's sake is really just latent sexism, and that women are unthinking enough to not know they do everything for men anyway is... well, first silly, second, offensive, and third, incorrect. We really need to get away from men telling women that their behavior is "ingrained."

Re: "Lighten up"

#725

Post by reneherse » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:42 PM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #606

reneherse wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How to talk to women in the workplace: Treat them first and foremost as persons , not as sexual beings, attractive or otherwise. Imagine she's your sister, your mom, a CEO or Secretary of State, and proceed normally. Be a gentleman. And I'd say the "person-first" rule goes for how to treat other men, too.

I am not attracted to my sister or my mom, though. Sure you could say, just don't be attracted to co-workers, but it just isn't realistic (see other comments, 18% of committed couples met at work).

The best rule is to just keep it to yourself (at least until you're certain the attraction is reciprocated). Don't act on it, don't let it color your interactions or conclusions about her competence, good or bad. Its important to not objectify your co-workers, as that is the starting point of all sexism and sexual harrassment. And incidentally, since attractive women receive questionable attention all the time, your gentlemanly behavior will make you stand out, possibly allowing you to become friends or more, if thats what is mutually wanted. You will also grow as a human being.

i'd write more but it's too tortuous on my iphone. if you you've got other questions or need advice, feel free to shoot me an email.

Re: "Lighten up"

#726

Post by ckpwong » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:44 PM UTC

ahoyhere wrote: post #687

As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers'). Not saying this is what's happening in these cases, but I've often seen this happen to women not because they're wome…

When I was in my early 20's, I (the lone female developer) was once asked by my manager to put together a gift for the only other female team member, a tester, who had just given birth. I don't know why I was picked, because I was

(1) very new to the team, (2) didn't knew the other person well, and (3) generally ill-equipped at that stage of my life (really, just entering the "adult world") to anticipate what was an appropriate gift for a new mother.

There were other team members who were already parents (of multiple children, even), thus probably knew better. But I was picked.

I think I just got a Toys'R'Us gift card as cop out.

Re: "Lighten up"

#727

Post by mtoddh » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:45 PM UTC

elptacek wrote: post #709

tptacek wrote: post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

Well, I guess I ought to weigh in on this one, since I am the interviewee in question. First, the story. During the interview, I was interrupted while answering a question with, "I think I have a tick." My brain immediately thinks, "He's on eBay and has just won a copy of The Tick." But then he swivels the monitor around to show me a flesh-colored rectangle with a round, red area in the middle of it. I'm pretty sure…

Crazy interview story. Way inappropriate and at the very least shows he wasn't even paying attention. I'm a stay-at-home dad to my 18 month old son and also get nervous about what the job hunt will be like once I return to work. I guess when the time comes at least I can console myself with the knowledge that I probably won't have to deal with the interviewer showing me pictures of a tick on their ass. :-)

men harass each other with equal or greater tendency than their female peers...men are socialized to shrug it off or suck it up, and may even become desensitized to it after a while

I'd say that's pretty accurate - maybe shrugging off a little harassment is how we guys try to prove we're confident to each other.

Re: "Lighten up"

#728

Post by n_time » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:46 PM UTC

arien wrote: post #722

__abc wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the "as a man" part. That's further propagating the problem. I'd rather we point out "sexist behavior" to help make it stop vs introduce an even more subtler sexist behavior In your senario: You, as a man, aware that she as a women, can get treated differently, so you will then treat her differently based on that. You see, you are still treating her differently, where ultimately, no one treats her…

Exactly. The moment we stop looking at "men" and "women" or "black" and "white" and start looking at "people" is when these things are truly sorted out.

This is never going to happen, and IMHO should not. Equality is not equivalency and none of us are colour blind. The key is accepting differences when they ARE there. That said, class is a way bigger difference than race. :P

EDIT: I'm definitely not saying that the subjective perceived differences in gender and race are real, or that bigotry and ignorance are cool.

Re: "Lighten up"

#729

Post by mhartl » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:48 PM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #721

mhartl wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to know WTF is going to offend people. The result is a choice between potential opprobrium and insufferable blandness. This is how it happens: http://android.eonline.com/article.ftl?category=Latest+News&... I pretty sure DeNiro didn't burn any crosses.

It's hard to know WTF is going to offend people Or, you can pay attention to what does offend people and not do those things again in the future. It's not realistic to expect to never offend people, but everyone has a responsibility to understand what their actions do for other people.

you can pay attention to what does offend people and not do those things again in the future

Yes, and following this course results in outcome #2: insufferable blandness. The range of things people find offensive is staggering. Indeed, many are offended by the notion that sometimes you just need to grow a thicker skin—which kind of proves the point.

Re: "Lighten up"

#730

Post by tripzilch » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:49 PM UTC

ErrantX wrote: post #642

jasonlotito wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the sound of it, she's not. She's blaming ErrantX. What I gather is, she didn't feel offended, and rather, by him doing what he did, make her feel as if others saw her as being "offended." I think that is much more likely the case. The question is, should ErrantX be offended for other people? If he's offended, he should speak up. But being offended for other people implies they are also offended. And, if they ar…

We discussed it in depth after, because we are close friends (which helped). It wasn't so much exposing her as being offended; she was put out by the treatment, but had gotten used to it over time. To the extent it didn't bother her any more (the more I tell this anecdote, the more awful it seems really!). When I raised it as an issue, publicly, it brought all of that back. In addition it made her feel that everyone…

So if this tea thing happened at (nearly) every meeting, you'd have been able to discuss the issue in private, between meetings, and offer to raise it next time--or probably better, discuss it, let her know that if she'd bring it up you'd have her back?

I don't know actually--apparently she had an idea of something she would be comfortable with to address it? I have some ideas for different approaches which I wrote down but then deleted because in the end it comes down to what she feels comfortable with. Anyway my point is, I'd almost always first discuss this with the person in question rather than speaking up in the heat of the moment. It's usually not appropriate, puts the person in a tight spot or a spot light and sometimes these things are better resolved at a different, quieter moment anyway. The exception to this (for me) would be when a remark is really offensive or not subtle at all (like the low-cut blouse remark in the article[1]), simply because at that point it offends me as well, even if the person isn't even around because I shall not tolerate such toxic remarks in a place where I have to work.

[1] "Hey Jim, your fly is open! I KNOW WHERE I'M SITTING! :D wink"