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Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

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Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#721
I tried to find the original source, I could not.

That being said, I have witnessed this non sense during my professional career, we had meeting discussing the need to hire woman or black people.

As an engineer I can't possibly agree to that. I want to work with engineers, problem solvers. I don't think Melatonin or the presence or absence of a vagina to be a useful metric.

That's also the reason I left the Western world for the foreseeable future. It's clearly impossible to focus long enough on a problem without being disturbed by the new shiny ideology of the moment.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#722

He’s right to do so. Statements that your research must be presented with a filter based on how it will advance political goals calls into question the integrity of all research. When people don’t “trust the science” this will be why. But further, I’d never seen the statement from antiracist before…wow. The idea that the only cure for discrimination is discrimination is akin to saying the only cure for violence is vi…

> The cure for discrimination is forgiveness. The cure for violence is forgiveness. The cure for hatred is forgiveness.

> The only way anything stops is for people to have the humility and wisdom to say “this will stop with me.”

This is how I used to think. It’s reminiscent of the thinking of the Dalai Lama, Gandhi, John Lennon, and countless others who have had noble idealism which sadly isn’t congruous with reality. Here is a quote which demonstrates the logical endpoint of this idea:

> Hitler killed five million [sic] Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.....It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany.... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions.[1]

That is the logical conclusion of this idea, take your own life in hopes you’ll posthumously be considered worthy of having been spared, and worthy of having anyone intervene to spare you. Because unilaterally, arbitrarily deciding to forgive a transgressor who’s still motivated by their transgression grants permission and submission to their goal.

There is historical precedent for a similar notion being more realistic and effective: Truth and Reconciliation in South Africa. But what makes it more realistic and more effective is that there was significant, forceful pressure which motivated the transgressors to seek mutual reconciliation. To some extent, they were also willing participants.

Personal anecdote time: like probably many here, I was bullied as a kid. It was a shockingly regular occurrence for me to be violently attacked, sometimes even by people I don’t think I’d ever interacted with before they were beating me. I had a timid and peaceful demeanor even when some of my family strongly encouraged me to defend myself. Eventually this led to a group of ~20 kids kicking me on the ground while I covered my head and neck and hoped to make it out alive. I was 13-14 years old, I had endured beatings on a lesser scale too many times to count. Of course I knew I couldn’t defend myself from 20 kids, so I took another beating. But the next time I got jumped, by one kid, I punched him straight in the face. I didn’t even know I had it in me to do, but instinct took over. Then I got up, saw the kid who attacked me was embarrassed but physically okay, and I walked away. That was the last time anyone ever laid hands on me outside a sporting context with established consent. Now I can forgive those kids, because they’ve stopped beating me.

1: Quoting Gandhi, source: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gandhi-on-the-holocaust

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#723
post #173

Free Speech for Me--But Not for Thee: How the American Left and Right Relentlessly Censor Each Other (1992) [1] is a good read on how we got to a point where our ability to communicate across ideologies appears to be broken in many ways. For example, in 1963 Yale disinvited George Wallace, who was popular in the deep south, as a speaker. As a result, observers were deprived of a chance to hear opposing speakers' argu…

Whoops. I owe you an apology. I blindly accepted your claim that Wallace was not permitted to speak at Yale. That's not true. I regret not being more skeptical. I am fail. Please accept my most humble apology. TLDR: Yale Political Union invites Wallace. President Kingman Brewster Jr blocks. Much drama. Including local black leaders and civil rights activists, who defended Wallace's appearance per principles of free s…

> I owe you an apology.

For what? I don't think we conversed yet in this thread.

> I blindly accepted your claim that Wallace was not permitted to speak at Yale. That's not true.

I can see that the context changed the meaning for you. Good thing I cited the source. For me, my original comment still rings true as a summary. Wallace was disinvited and ultimately did not speak at Yale.

There are a few errors in your TLDR. Kingman was provost at the time, not president, and it was reported that two groups of law students reinvited him, not two student groups.

> Donald Kagan reported that “two groups of law students issued another invitation to Wallace, reaffirming ‘the right of students to hear speakers of their own choosing without restraint or interference from those who would like to limit the right of free expression to those whose views coincide with theirs.’

It's not clear that Provost Brewster would've allowed Wallace to speak had he accepted the new invitation from these students. Also, the book describes how Brewster, later as president, accused an established student group of "playing games" with free speech. So it's not like he had a change of heart on the subject:

> "The occasion does not warrant departure from Yale’s principles of free speech. However, the use of free speech as a game, the lack of sensitivity to others, the lack of consideration for the community, and the lack of responsible concern for the university as an institution seem to me reprehensible..."

Regardless, it does not substantially change what happened. Wallace was disinvited and ultimately did not attend. Human relations aren't so easily Ctrl-Z'ed. It doesn't surprise me that some tried to reinvite him after the backlash. As you said, many in the community stood against Brewster's decision.

These days, it is common for students to shout down undesired speakers, so it's interesting to look back at when this practice may have began. For awhile, the University of Chicago was a place where such debates were encouraged. A group of Harvard students jokingly ranked it as the least fun school, less fun than West Point, for that reason [1].

> FIRE is just another dark money funded group working on the reactionary project to roll back civil rights, assert corporate rule. and end democracy.

Wow. Just going to slip that in at the end there huh? That's quite a take down. What do you think is dark about it? They're a non-profit which makes them subject to much more scrutiny than private organizations.

As for "asserting corporate rule" and "ending democracy", I think that's a ridiculous claim. They exist to defend the free speech rights that the ACLU now declines to do, as I mentioned elsewhere [2]. If anything, they're responsible upholding democracy by encouraging people to choose words over violence.

> [4] Might be broken.

Works for me. It's the last page of their podcast listing as of now.

[1] https://youtu.be/XFShZMJhdOA?t=180

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33055579

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#724
post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the #9 most controversial article in wikipedia, historically: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/the-ten-most-contr... It is heavily censored with wikipedia's left-leaning bias. Go read the talk page to see it in action.

All the talk page indicates is that the article is correct, despite what a number of skull-measuring right-wingers would like you to believe. Wikipedia doesn't have a left-leaning bias, reality does.

> "Wikipedia doesn't have a left-leaning bias, reality does."

It's impossible to take you seriously when you say things like this.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#725

I tried to find the original source, I could not. That being said, I have witnessed this non sense during my professional career, we had meeting discussing the need to hire woman or black people. As an engineer I can't possibly agree to that. I want to work with engineers, problem solvers. I don't think Melatonin or the presence or absence of a vagina to be a useful metric. That's also the reason I left the Western w…

That’s a pretty strong reaction to HR wanting more diversity. I wouldn’t call that a “new shiny ideology of the moment” either. Affirmative action dates back to reconstruction.

I think the fallacy here is that there’s a single best applicant for any given position. There are often multiple qualified candidates, why shouldn’t race or gender be a factor if you’re just going to choose arbitrarily anyway.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#726
post #173

Free Speech for Me--But Not for Thee: How the American Left and Right Relentlessly Censor Each Other (1992) [1] is a good read on how we got to a point where our ability to communicate across ideologies appears to be broken in many ways. For example, in 1963 Yale disinvited George Wallace, who was popular in the deep south, as a speaker. As a result, observers were deprived of a chance to hear opposing speakers' argu…

> Censorship is all these characters need to gain new followers. No, they also need a platform to make people aware of their existence, their views, and to recast their censorship to be in their favour. The whole point of no-platforming individuals is to make a statement that their views are seen as reprehensible and to stop them from being able to air those views to an audience. Not all ideological disputes are abou…

> "The whole point of no-platforming individuals is to make a statement that their views are seen as reprehensible..."

Uh...reprehensible by whom?

You do realize that what's "reprehensible" is extremely subjective, right? And the same tactics and standards that you are using to silence opinions you don't like can therefore just as easily be used against you and yours by people who find your opinions reprehensible.

That's the whole point of promoting the free and open exchange of ideas, it protects everyone's ability to speak freely. And then individuals can make up their own minds about what is "reprehensible" and choose whether THEY want to listen to it or not. In other words, people don't need you to be an arbiter of what is reprehensible for other adults.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#727

>Last week the New York University (NYU) psychology professor announced that he would resign at the end of the year from the Society for Personality and Social Psychology, his primary professional association, because of _a newly adopted requirement that everybody presenting research at the group's conferences explain how their submission advances_ "equity, inclusion, and anti-racism goals." It was the sort of litmus…

This sounds optional in the same way that company socials are optional. Maybe you can skip it once, but too many times and people start asking questions.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#728
post #725

I tried to find the original source, I could not. That being said, I have witnessed this non sense during my professional career, we had meeting discussing the need to hire woman or black people. As an engineer I can't possibly agree to that. I want to work with engineers, problem solvers. I don't think Melatonin or the presence or absence of a vagina to be a useful metric. That's also the reason I left the Western w…

That’s a pretty strong reaction to HR wanting more diversity. I wouldn’t call that a “new shiny ideology of the moment” either. Affirmative action dates back to reconstruction. I think the fallacy here is that there’s a single best applicant for any given position. There are often multiple qualified candidates, why shouldn’t race or gender be a factor if you’re just going to choose arbitrarily anyway.

You can use gender or race or any other factor. I just don't want to have anything to do with that company because I am afraid I will lose IQ point on the long run.

I am a capitalist, I am not sure which factors are the best factors when it comes to correlating with performance.

Is it hard skills? Communication? Do I need a generalist? A specialist? Is it better to hire people with ego or not?

One thing I am pretty confident is that vagina or Melatonin are pretty weak factor. And I would not trust any HR or managers optimizing for it.

I am a lot more happy since I live in a country where that does not value these things.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? first: tone & language means this is silly of me to reply. second: how about basically the entire existence of the US so many examples of government & local police enforced white ethnic activism and active racism & enslavement. fugitive slave act. legally forced segregation & jim crow laws.

It was absolutely obvious that the time period I was referencing was now, not 60 years ago. You have to be especially dense to not get that. Also, you were not explicitly asked or referenced in my comment so your first point is irrelevant. Yes, especially dense.

this is the opposite of what comments on HN are supposed to be.

you clearly asked "Can you give me one example where such a society was allowed?" that is past tense, not bounded to now. I answered. You are wrong.

Oh and BTW white ethnic activism is alive and well.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite parse your intent here. But if I'm understanding the 2nd sentence, this is so true in that these extremists feel that unless we are forced to listen to & give them a platform that they are somehow being censored. No one is taping someone's mouth shut. In fact those voices are louder now than they have been in my entire life. But I'm not going to listen to it. and yeah young people are generally more ope…

>unless we are forced to listen to & give them a platform No, actually if you just don't explicitly engage in hiring practices on the basis of ideology. https://unherd.com/thepost/political-discrimination-is-fuell... >Several studies find that between 18 and 55% of academics would discriminate against a Right-wing applicant for a job or grant. I found that 40-45% of North American academics would not hire a Trump sup…

Jesus christ. these threads on hn have become so toxic this is pointless to engage.

how tf is ethnic diversity harmful?

also my comment had nothing to do with hiring.

but to respond anyways:

ideological diversity !== making room for racist, homophobic, christian nationalist or otherwise hateful people.

and people have every right not to want to have to work and sit next to someone who is actively working to make their life worse, take away their rights, and or who are simply diametrically opposed to their very existence and often overtly bring this with them into said workplace. e.g. see all the other threads on hn that have to do with race and gender.

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