Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

721–730 of 817 posts

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#721

Post by II2II »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #428
zizee wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that could be one of the extra factors that we're looking for. People want/expect more, which has caused people to have to pay more. But I'm doubtful that it is going to account for a lot of the cost of living issue in Portugal. I'd still like the GP to connect the dots for me on his "it's all demographics" argument. It sounds like are argument you hear on Reddit.

I think you're missing the point. For example, when my siblings were kids we all lived in 1 house. I have 3 siblings so there were 6 of us including my parents. In 1 house. As we graduated from college we moved out. Now there were 6 of us in 5 houses. Beyond the raw house count, you're going to need more space. Multi-bedroom homes have shared common space. The house we grew up in had 1 dining room, 1 kitchen, 1 livin…

Most younger people share accommodations (e.g. have a roommate). Most older people share accommodations (e.g. have a family). There is also some, for the lack of a more sensitive word, attrition as time goes on. Yes, your family has grown and the amount of space your family needs in order to maintain their quality of life has increased. Yet it has only increased by a relatively small amount.

I am also going to echo what was said earlier: dining rooms are not a necessity. They are mainly intended for people who entertain guests. Many apartments and smaller family homes don't even include a dining room, since the expectation is that people will eat in the kitchen.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#722

Post by gverrilla »

gip wrote: post #445
subsubzero wrote: post #171

This sounds like what happened in the SFbay area(south bay/pennisula), I grew up there and it used to be a great place to live, center left politics, lots of families and a diverse set of industries with many middle class opportunities. right around 10-15 years ago things started to change dramatically for the worse, housing and costs everywhere skyrocketed, homeless population exploded, politics veered hard left. Mo…

That is an anecdotinal data point.. I live in a building with 6 units in the Mission district of SF. Until a few years ago my neighbours were people: families, (gay) couples,.. We now have 3 startups in our building. One of the startup (YC-backed!) moved out yesterday. The guys just threw what they didn't want into the street from the windows of their second floor apartment. And disappeared, leaving a filthy mess on…

Move fast and break things. Literally.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#724

Post by kaashif »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #512
mr90210 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why you got downvoted, but you couldn’t be more right. Many young Portugueses fail to benefit from being part of the EU.

With all do respect this is bullshit. Portugal has the 4th highest rate of emmigrated working age population in the EU27, only surpassed by Romania, Lithuania, Croatia. Portugal had one of the single biggest brain drains in history post 2008 crisis. People have absolutely voted with their feet. Those who stayed behind, either stayed because they benefit from the cronyism or are held back by family or lack of marketab…

The comment was that many Portuguese fail to benefit from the EU.

You called this bullshit and write that many Portuguese have already left.

Both can be true, and you admit as much:

> Those who stayed behind, either stayed because they benefit from the cronyism or are held back by family or lack of marketable skills.

This is what we're talking about, it appears the author is being held back by family.

Many people have voted with their feet and left, and many haven't, both are true.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#725

Post by pydry »

dionidium wrote: post #716
pydry wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underlying issue is wealth inequality. There's a glut of capital chasing returns internationally that grows bigger every year. If 10 people with $1 to spend on an apple, and one person suddenly had $11 you could say demand for apples had "doubled", implying that this the result of an implacable, impersonal, unchangeable force but it absolutely isnt.

This is a bit of a shell game. What you describe is just another way to say that demand has increased. And your reframing doesn’t help us much, because there’s nothing in the short term you’re going to do to drastically change the global inequality landscape. So if we accept your explanation we’re actually worse off than where we started.

I reframed it in such a way to make it abundantly clear that the problem can be solved at any point with the judicious application of new taxes.

That guy with $11 just needs to lose most of it or not be able to spend it and then there is no more apples shortage "due to high demand".

Portugal cant tax an overly rich canadian living in canada but they can absolutely cut the bottom out of the portuguese-property-market-as-a-bitcoin-like-store-of-wealth. This would not only free up land for portuguese habitation it would help fill the portuguese budget hole.

However, for some reason that is probably more about a variety of property owning portuguese politicians getting very rich and not attracting useful investment, the Portuguese government encouraged this with the golden visa. They only cut porto and lisbon out of the program after a steep backlash.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#726

Post by pnt12 »

garyclarke27 wrote: post #693
jonathanstrange wrote: post #97

Yes, the situation is dire. I live in Lisbon as a foreigner for more than 12 years now. We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city. Luckily, we have an older contract that cannot be changed as easily as newer ones. I'm not thrilled by the possibility that our landlord might cancel it some day, however, e.g. for relatives to move in. Rents in t…

Come on, it's nowhere near dire - it's expensive yes, like just about every other capital city - Lisbon is still way cheaper than Paris or London. This poorly written rambling rant of an article has some valid points but no insight. I moved to Cascais near Lisbon 5 years ago because of Brexit and yes property has boomed, like in many other countries but money printing QE is not just a Portuguese phenomena. 10 Years a…

2 objections:

I don't think talent is moving in - at least in tech, there are lots of foreign companies opening offices and hiring local talent.

And for number two, it seems you're part of the problem the article mentions. You comain about how long it takes to work in a property you're INVESTINF in - but Portuguese people are struggling to afford property to LIVE in. That's the crisis, rich people investing in property makes it more expensive for poor people to own it.

I lived in Lisbon for a while. After expenses and a bedroom rent, my whole salary was spent, for a bedroom in a apartment shared with 3 other people. Many of my work colleagues lived in the peripheries and took more than 45 minutes to get to work, or more than 1.5 hours of daily commute. That's what the majority of Lisboets are being forced to, such that tourists and investors can have their happy lives.

This type of investment is causing lots of problems, and society should prioritize housing as a place to live in, not as a business to invest in. There are lots of other ventures for investors that don't ruin people's lives.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#727

Post by joaogante »

somewhereoutth wrote: post #87

5 years resident here (as a Brexit refugee). Central city locations in Lisbon and Porto have exploded in price, but this is due to AirBnB rather than rich expats. Portugal's tourism industry has boomed, which has put money in a lot of people's pockets, but has distorted local economies somewhat. Better management is required, for example cracking down on AirBnB and NOT building that new cruise liner terminal. Unfortu…

Portuguese living in Lisbon here -- I deeply agree with the parent comment. Prior to covid, it was very common to hear stories where families were to put all their savings into new mortgages to buy more AirBnBs.

I also see a bright future in Portugal. Many young people that moved out after university want to come back, after making a killing in their career. They might earn less with the move, but you don't need a six digit salary to live very comfortably here.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#728

Post by tiagod »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #512
mr90210 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why you got downvoted, but you couldn’t be more right. Many young Portugueses fail to benefit from being part of the EU.

With all do respect this is bullshit. Portugal has the 4th highest rate of emmigrated working age population in the EU27, only surpassed by Romania, Lithuania, Croatia. Portugal had one of the single biggest brain drains in history post 2008 crisis. People have absolutely voted with their feet. Those who stayed behind, either stayed because they benefit from the cronyism or are held back by family or lack of marketab…

> Those who stayed behind, either stayed because they benefit from the cronyism or are held back by family or lack of marketable skills.

Or because they don't want to leave their home country and have hope things will get better.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#729

Post by kaashif »

tarakat wrote: post #473
MikeTheRocker wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair is generally defined to mean in accordance with established rules and without bias. Offering preferential renting rights or pricing to certain cohorts such as people of a given age, nationality, etc. would clearly not be fair under this definition.

If a nation cannot give preference to its own people, then that nation effectively does not exist. As for "established rules", the idea that nations should be reduced to economic zones is relatively novel, and not something most voters (i.e. the people nominally deciding on those rules) agree with.

It is something a lot of voters in the US agree with, which is where most commenters on HN are from.

The US as a nation is incredibly new and imported millions of people to build its population from almost nothing.

Communities being born and dying due to economics is something that has been happening in the US constantly, at a large scale, for its entire existence.

Maybe that's why some people are okay with this.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#730

Post by blub »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #262
jseliger wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city Portugal should build more housing, which is a simple, effective solution if the rent is too damn high: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-ren... . The nice thing about indoor space is that we can make pretty much as much of it as we'd like.

How this usually works: "I'd do anything for lower housing prices!" Build more housing. "...but I won't do that."

In my area of Germany new 3-4 room apartments(!) sell for 500-700k€. Waiting lists for parcels of land which must be allocated by the city stretch out for years. Old houses even in poor condition and needing major work start around 300k€.

This is not some metropolis or even medium city. Quite the opposite.

Post reply on HN