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Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

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Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#721

Post by jp0d »

jhatax wrote: post #706
AussieWog93 wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Indian education system doesn't care about learning at all. Honestly, I think people from other countries get that impression about you guys too. I've been a part of multiple (honestly, quite racist) conversations where we just WTF over the fact that these guys have masters degrees but can't solve the most basic problem assigned to them.

I understand that your perspective is colored by your immediate colleagues who might not have the bandwidth or horsepower to solve simple problems, but please note that Indians are a large diaspora globally. If your Indian peers cannot solve the most basic problem, how did they make it through the same interview process that you did? It’s sad to read such commentary on HN, a bastion of inclusive commentary. This is l…

I agree with you on generalising based on what immediate colleagues are capable of or not. Indians in general have done quite well on the world stage. To answer your question from an Australian perspective, the interview processes here generally don't include many technical questions. Don't get me wrong. Some companies are almost like American companies and ask the candidates to even take home some tasks and come back with a solution.

But other enterprise companies generally have a look at the candidate's resume and hire them based on how they are able to answer questions related to their resume. It's sad to see such statements and also sad to see some incompetent people holding high position in many organisations. But it's not particular to Indians. I've come across such people from almost every background. I'm not very knowledgeable either. But I'm able to do my job well. :)

Edit: Having been living in Australia since several years now, I can understand AussieWog93's comment. I've also lived in India to know that such conversations are quite common in India too. It's just that Australians are willing to share it without hesitation. haha.. Don't be offended.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#722

Post by hs_parent »

lightup wrote: post #553

My son found out 2 days ago he didn't get accepted to his in-state land grant public university. The University of Minnesota. This was his fall back plan. Now he's screwed and may not be able to start college in fall. His sins: - a 35 ACT score (legit with no studying or ACT prep classes) - a 3.8 weighted GPA (because he took multiple AP classes and actually was in college for his junior and senior years through Minn…

I'm sorry this happened to your son. It can be really disheartening for kids who work so hard.

Similar thing happened to my kid at University of California this year where test scores are also not even considered.

Wasn't as bad - they got into a 2nd tier UC so we are at least thankful for that.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#723

Post by agar »

outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

This thread is filled with people arguing false dichotomies: "test scores" vs. "fancy extra-curriculars" or "rich experiences" vs. "working class experiences."

I recently saw one child into college, and have another on the way. I've spoken to many admissions officers, counselors, and similar folks making admissions choices for public and private universities.

To a one, they all claim to be looking for two things: (1) students who will succeed at their university, and (2) a diverse range of students to avoid a monoculture.

This means they try to look at the "whole student." For some students, that means academics and test scores to show academic prowess. For others, it's working summers to pay for their college to show it's a personally meaningful step for them. For others, it's being a primary caregiver to siblings or parents while still meeting college requirements to show grit and determination. For others, it's demonstrating consistent progress in pursuing a passion (e.g., volunteering or music or art) with a trajectory that continues through college.

Admission officers say they want a student body comprised of all of the above, and that's how they get the diverse range of students to create a dynamic learning environment.

Some of the least interesting students are "box checkers" who have a bunch of disconnected extra-curriculars that don't show passion, direction, or a proclivity towards success. If a student defines "success" as "getting into college," then what will they do once they get there? Probably flounder.

Test scores can be a useful data point towards determining collegiate success, but it certainly won't be the only one used. Nor will extra-curriculars or any other single factor.

The single biggest piece of advice for any applying student: create a narrative that shows how your activities (whatever they are) demonstrate why you will be a successful student that achieves your major-related goals. Your grades, scores, work life, home life, interests, and personal experiences should all be connected to show you are thoughtful, motivated, driven, and have your shit together. Do that, and you'll have the best chance of success at most admissions offices.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#724

Post by johnnyanmac »

lightup wrote: post #586
lightup wrote: post #553

My son found out 2 days ago he didn't get accepted to his in-state land grant public university. The University of Minnesota. This was his fall back plan. Now he's screwed and may not be able to start college in fall. His sins: - a 35 ACT score (legit with no studying or ACT prep classes) - a 3.8 weighted GPA (because he took multiple AP classes and actually was in college for his junior and senior years through Minn…

And young people on here imagine having 2 children 2 years apart. One of them doesn't get to go to college because of covid and the other doesn't get to go because ability didn't matter for a year. EDIT: I hope this never happens to your kids. Beware of being penalized for trying. Is that a lesson you will teach your kids? I'm not "bummed". Read my post with anger. U of MN was not his first choice. It was _fallback_.…

>Beware of being penalized for trying. Is that a lesson you will teach your kids?

Life is going to teach it one way or another, and Picard's words stand even more true as I enter my 30's as they were back when I was an angsty 14YO just trying to stay with my friends before Mom's job forces her out of state... again. Took me a while to realize I wasn't being punished for not studying enough and that this was simply a factor of life I had no control over.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#725

Post by pishpash »

RC_ITR wrote: post #716
rayiner wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

>The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture Kind of wild to erase centuries of cultural heritage by implying that teaching academics with art is a uniquely Anglo-Saxan ideal.

It's not. Being well rounded is the ideal of the nobility in practically every settled culture, ancient or modern. It's the definition of "cultured". Having said that, it is a class marker, so participants of the dominant culture have a leg up.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#726

Post by xphos »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #666
rayiner wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

> The notion of a "well rounded student" ... > is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture First of all, I don't know what "blue blood WASP culture" is. Explain that please. Second, there's nothing wrong with expecting students to participate in extra-curricular activities like music and art as a basis for admission. MIT is still going to evaluate those things.

WASP is White anglo saxon protosant and is to indicate that a "right" and "proper" person ought to know music and etc, but only in so much depth that it demonstrates there wealth. Which is how extra-curricular creep sometimes shows up when people apply to college and were President of X club and play Y sport, while not really having a deep interest in the activity. When you are treating an activity as a resume builder rather than an activity or experience to invest deeper in to me that shows a lack of intellectual curiousity (but does show a thought process of understanding procedualism and bureaucracy (not the students fault when its what the system values))

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#727

Post by pishpash »

dangle1 wrote: post #555
outlace wrote: post #470

I used to be against standardized tests, but I grew up as a low-income minority in a single-parent household and I ended up getting into good schools pretty much only due to my high test scores, which has been a life changer. Other than test scores, I couldn't afford to do any fancy extra-curriculars. It felt a lot more achievable to know I can change my life if I just focus and do well on a test than it would if I h…

I can relate, and I appreciated the doors the PSAT and SAT opened for me. OTOH, I test higher than my actual abilities in my opinion, and that was a relatively unfair advantage the test gave me.

Has anyone ever said "tests fucked me over"? Yes, some people say that, but every time I meet one I see why they tested low. Being able to stay calm under pressure and complete a task on time, and preparing for that, are important life skills, on top of being technically capable.

Tests generate a lot of false positives, but they give false negatives less. If you fail you fail for a valid reason.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#728

Post by DownUnde »

lightup wrote: post #566
gourabmi wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious. How many universities did he apply to ? How many accepts/ rejects from that pool?

He applied to [redacted] State, Rice, UNC, Duke, and U of MN - Twin Cities. Accepted at [redacted] State (they have a formula for everyone). He also got their highest out of state "scholarship" - which is more like a break on out of state tuition - no reciprocity with MN. No word from Duke yet but that probably won't happen either. Complete disaster for his future and really a shot to his otherwise happy and optimist…

Your son quite frankly should have expected this. I'm always wary of parents sharing "horror" stories of college application for multiple reasons. #1 Admissions are a crap shoot and you can't just apply to very selective schools and expect to walk maybe one of those schools is safety rest are reaches for any student in the country, his acceptances are most likely par for his skill level, Congrats on the test scores but north of almost 50000 students achieve scores in that range yearly. The quality of his admissions essay's are no doubt a factor. #2 if you're son is truly that talented and didn't get accepted to his dream schools than there must be some other red flags or issues you are not mentioning.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#729

Post by fmajid »

rayiner wrote: post #642
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to high school in the Dallas/Fort Worth area and almost all of the top academic students in my class were first or second generation immigrants (mostly Indian) that had no interest in extra-curricular activities like sports, band, choir, or really anything. It's important that people, especially immigrants, can get into these schools based solely on their test scores and not have to do any of the other trivial…

The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture. That is not to say that I think only test scores should matter. But the kinds of extracurriculars colleges value—in particular that they don’t value having a job or working in the farm—smacks of old money ideals.

> The notion of a “well rounded student” who does music, art, and extra curricular activities, is a legacy of blue blood WASP culture.

More precisely it was first invented by Yale to limit the number of Jewish students admitted, and was later repurposed to limit the number of Asian students admitted.

Re: Reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles

#730

Post by squaresmile »

frankchn wrote: post #539
fdgsdfogijq wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, a lot of tests like that are actually testing for memorization, and not problem solving ability.

I don't think the math part of the Gaokao tests memorization. Looking at a sample paper ( https://medium.com/@yujia_jo/2016-jiangsu-gaokao-national-hi... ), it seems like the examination really tests for the ability to do math and problem solve under fairly heavy time pressure (150 minutes total for all questions if you are in the science stream).

I would say the questions by themselves don't test memorization but all the circumstances around the test push it towards memorization.

Given decent fundamentals you can solve all these problems from first principles but you would take way too much time (unless you are a genius, of course). To solve these problems within the allotted time would require grinding a ton of problems so you can get familiar with a part of or the full question beforehand. Don't get me wrong, practicing problems is a good way to study math and I don't have any issue with this in a vacuum.

However, this is before bringing other people into the equation. The floor is raised every year and the competition is intense. You also need to study for other subjects, not just math. All in all, "memorization" became the only strategy. It's fair to debate whether it's "rote memorization" or actually "learning the material" but with how much the students study the line between the two blurs. It feels too "overfitting" if I would borrow a statistics word.

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