Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

apnews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

721–730 of 731 posts

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#721

Post by wruza »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #697
wruza wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An attorney? I've had a hard time finding any attorney (not in US) for my grand-uncle who groped an underage girl on the street. Almost everyone refused, despite my request was only to get any information about the case^ and where it may possibly go, not the actual defense. The person who agreed to help said they wouldn't do it too, but they were asked by people they couldn't say no to. (Uncle ended up in an asylum d…

And these people would defend murder suspects? How very strange. — In many jurisdictions defence attorneys do not have a right to refuse any case they are competent in and timewise available for, something I approve of.

In my country, default defense attorneys work ~together with a prosecution side, they basically fill in process-required papers and read the characterization aloud, that's it. No one of them would help me to understand the situation until it's potentially too late, in case of some sort of fabrication or pressure, which I suspected. They wouldn't refuse, they are just useless. I had to look for a lawyer on the "market" side of it, who brought me right to the investigation office head. Through that I learned the facts and future options to discuss them with my family. Yes, they hesitate to take these cases without even trying to hear details, but are happy to defense murderers. It's unfair legal-wise, because many such allegations recently became unfair and tv-popular, so no one is insured from it.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#722

Post by make3 »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #88
robbiep wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re not making the pig more human, they’re removing the markers of ‘foreign’ that would make it an immune target. So it’s a nice vanilla organ that minimally attracts the attention of the immune system.

According to another article: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2022/01/10/human-... > Three genes were turned off that might otherwise have triggered an immediate immune rejection – the recognition of a pig organ as coming from a different species. Six human genes were added to prevent blood from coagulating in the heart, improve molecular compatibility and reduce the risk of rejection. > One final gene was…

imho complaining about anything that doesn't touch the brain is really pushing it

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#723

Post by gerash »

Sporktacular wrote: post #704
gerash wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this take. Chimps kill and eat smaller monkeys all the time. If you watch any nature documentary you can see how ruthless animals are as it's all a survival game after all. I'm no biologist but the empathy / sympathy part also seems to be an evolved trait. It should bring stability to a social group and reduce injuries due to needless in-fighting which effectively ensures better survival as a group.

"It should bring stability to a social group and reduce injuries due to needless in-fighting which effectively ensures better survival as a group." That's probably how it started, but the definition of social group expanded as we came to realise how arbitrary and culturally determined social group boundaries are. Once we account for those biases, and start to see all animals as just trying to survive in the world, it…

Including all living creatures isn't quite useful in terms of survival chances.

Thinking about this topic, we could also philosophize the whole "torture" aspect. Presumably it means physical pain to an animal which many feel uneasy about. But if you think about it, pain, as signals to the brain are also evolved mechanisms in order to survive. Pain is a crude signal indicating that the life of that animal is in danger but they are not perfect indicators.

If pain signals were more accurate they would activate the moment an animal approaches a human with a shotgun similar to how you feel pain touching boiling water. But the pain mechanism hasn't become that sophisticated yet. So even the pain is an arbitrary crude mechanism so real "torture" would be loss of habitat for example but animals won't feel that as pain.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#724

Post by xupybd »

Sporktacular wrote: post #718
xupybd wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We eat them. We're simply hard wired to use them as a resource.

Nope. Many cultures share the same hard wiring, but not the habit of eating animals.

It's not unbreakable but it is a species wide bias.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#725

Post by JetAlone »

theplumber wrote: post #684
JetAlone wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BREAKING NEWS: discussion goes nowhere useful when you open by outright telling a person their worldview is deluded, and end on insulting their heroes and family. If I've at all discouraged you from treating other people like this in the future at the cost of a few piddly little hacker news upvote points, I take this as a massive victory all around. It's a win for you too cause you might be a little calmer in future.

Enjoy the echo chamber!

You're right, there's nothing quite like the acoustics of a beautiful domed cathedral. Thank you!

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#726

Post by johnisgood »

kaba0 wrote: post #598
johnisgood wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Lack of meat leads to vitamin B12 deficiency which gives you all sorts of neurological issues. Pretty damn horrible ones. > The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics warns of the risk of vitamin B12 deficiencies in vegetarians and vegans. Vitamin B12 is found naturally only in animal products. A lack of vitamin B12 can lead to anemia and blindness. It can also cause muscle weakness, tingling, and numbness. We might…

Algae has plenty of B12. Also, this is a vitamin deficiency, compared to obligate carnivores like cat that can’t digest plants . It is a significant difference between the two.

> The usual dietary sources of vitamin B(12) are animal foods, meat, milk, egg, fish, and shellfish. As the intrinsic factor-mediated intestinal absorption system is estimated to be saturated at about 1.5-2.0 microg per meal under physiologic conditions, vitamin B(12) bioavailability significantly decreases with increasing intake of vitamin B(12) per meal. The bioavailability of vitamin B(12) in healthy humans from fish meat, sheep meat, and chicken meat averaged 42%, 56%-89%, and 61%-66%, respectively. Vitamin B(12) in eggs seems to be poorly absorbed (So it seems like that despite them containing substantial amounts of vitamin B12, they are not suitable for use as vitamin B12 sources because they predominantly contain pseudovitamin B12 which is inactive in humans. They recommend fortified breakfast cereals for vegans.

What you said about cats inability to digest plants is of no significance here. Vitamin deficiency - especially this particular one - is life-threatening. We need it. We can definitely have plants, and we may need plants as well, but we do need to eat something that contains substantial amounts of non-pseudovitamin B12, which is meat. Of course you can just be a vegan and supplement vitamin B12, but...

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17959839/

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#727

Post by Sporktacular »

hulitu wrote: post #426
graderjs wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird that these statements are made (and I don't mean by you, it's a trope to make them by people in general in discussions like this, I'm not picking you out) that it somehow justifies, or ameliorates, the awfulness of experimenting then dissecting (as someone said) a helpless intelligent creature. I think these statements justify animal trials and using it to benefit humans definitely. But it doesn't justify or ma…

If you think that humans make terrible things to animals, you should check what they do to other humans. There are "beautiful, human" stories about a certain Dr. Mengele, or Unit 731 or Guantanamo...

Oh really? So people can be cruel to each other? Great insight.

Whataboutism. This was about animal treatment.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#728

Post by Sporktacular »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #262
Sporktacular wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird how this is said without a shred of sympathy or concern for an intelligent, helpless creature. Weirder how it can be said without a sympathetic or concerned response. I hope we can someday move beyond seeing animals as a mere resource.

I think for things like this, being dispassionate is a coping mechanism. If you engage the sympathy part of your brain, you won’t be able to do it. If you don’t do it, then humans die instead.

And since humans, who are also the beneficiaries of this, are in the position to decide if the tradeoff is acceptable - the fact that they so often do is a morally problematic.

It doesn't mean we have to change everything and start dying to save pigs' lives. But we should debate it. And if it's morally wrong can we at least call it what it is.

Ask the beneficiaries of a process if they this it's good, and the usually say it is. Doesn't mean they are right.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#729

Post by Sporktacular »

xupybd wrote: post #724
Sporktacular wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Many cultures share the same hard wiring, but not the habit of eating animals.

It's not unbreakable but it is a species wide bias.

So it's hard wired, a bias or a bias that's hard wired? Or is simply maintaining convenient sources of protein a habit we have for food security and convenience? If so then we can achieve that without causing needless suffering.

But hey, eat whatever you like. Let's just not lie to ourselves to avoid ending an unnecessary habit.

Re: U.S. surgeons transplant pig heart into human patient

#730

Post by eru »

thereddaikon wrote: post #606
catgary wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know University of Calgary had a bio professor who got in hot water for abusing animals (essentially: he encouraged his student to not anaesthetize animals before surgery to fudge numbers). So there are definitely grad students who will happily torture animals if it can help their career.

Not sure where it came from, but there is a popular notion that scientists are somehow more moral than everyone else. Obviously that's not true. A lot of terrible things were made and many terrible acts committed by scientists. They can be just as depraved as the rest of us.

The two things you mention are not necessarily in opposition:

The average scientist could be much more moral than the average human, and you could still get the occasional mad man; just need a large enough population of scientists.

Post reply on HN