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My First Impressions of Web3

moxie.org

721–730 of 1001 posts

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the data has no value. anyone can right click copy an image. the value is that you own the blockchain address that points to a url. picture of a house = no value. deed to the house = value. even if the house is destroyed (data changed), the deed still has some kind of value

A URL pointing to nothing with no way to view the art that supposedly lives there anymore? I don't think that "deed" is gonna be worth much for long. Sounds like it has the same value as saying "I used to own this one famous painting before it burned down in a fire." A hash corresponding to the bits in your file? Sure, that works, you can say "yep, this is the image, I own it." A URL plus a hash + the bits. Sure, tha…

You're not getting it. This is a game where the point is to collect deeds to houses, not the houses themselves. What's valuable to NFT enthusiasts is owning the deed to a famous home, even if the home is destroyed. Like saying you have the deed to Lincoln's first cabin

You can say that this is a stupid game and people shouldn't be playing it. I didn't make it up and I don't take part in it. I'm just trying to tell you what they're doing

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then it’s just back to trust based web2, you’re trusting internet archive. That’s his point: this isn’t leading to trust less decentralization in practice. To do that, you’d have to store the NFT data on chain, which is prohibitively expensive

This is where it falls apart for me too, people are paying huge sums for artificially scarce links to someone else’s server? I keep feeling like I’m missing something.

>I keep feeling like I’m missing something

You are missing something - a huge position in crypto. Like the article points out, your existing investment would benefit from all the hype that a slew of crypto-oriented services and products could give. Irrespective of whether those same services could be implemented "better" using standard centralized tech. And - amusingly - irrespective of whether those services offer products that you would ever in a million years have paid for without the novelty of crypto sprinkled on top - e.g. paying big bucks for receipts for jpgs.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#723
post #29

>When you think about it, OpenSea would actually be much “better” in the immediate sense if all the web3 parts were gone. It would be faster, cheaper for everyone, and easier to use. That sums up the situation for me. Having a marketplace for purely digital goods might be a concept with a future. Having standard ways to interoperate between different platforms and query and update these goods might make sense (althou…

> Couldn't Rolex issue a PGP signed CSV of all valid Rolex serial numbers once a month on IPFS and you'd get the exact same security and trust profile without having to involve any "web3" feature? They totally could. But what’s interesting about NFTs is they standardize this process across all kinds of assets and issuers. Instead of a CSV for Rolex, a Twitter history for an artist, a deed for a house, a rental agreem…

It would be easy to create standards for Digital Asset and Identity so that producers could represent ownership on their servers and allow for trade. The only thing NFTs give you is hosting for this in a logically centralized network. Hypothetically, this allows for operations on different contracts to be composible, but I don't think this happens much in practice.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not terribly up to date with IPFS (so feel free to correct me), but if I’ve understood it correctly, it’s not dissimilar to Bittorent where files are seeded by interested parties and if no one happens to be seeding any longer, the file is essentially dead? It’s almost like you want some centralised entity to preserve copies of the images these NFTs link to. I wonder how many IPFS-backed NFTs are only being seeded…

Filecoin that you pay to have any files you like mirrored by many people, in a decentralized way. Arweave is also a one off fee to have the file mirrored forever, the hosters are paid from the yield earned on that fee.

Arweave nodes can choose not to store data (and will likely drop data that's not profitable over time also), so I'm not sure that it's really a solution.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#725
I really like how this article is written. I'm a big time crypto fan, but the point the author makes about how something being decentralized makes it more difficult to change is so true. This is the reason Ethereum 2 has been in the works for numerous years and is still several years away from being completed.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you transparently see all the code and databases for the websites you use and all the bank code and transactions?

It doesn't matter, because banks can undo mistaken transactions.

And they can hide so many other illicit and bogus transactions and investments in their favor.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#727
post #703
post #29

>When you think about it, OpenSea would actually be much “better” in the immediate sense if all the web3 parts were gone. It would be faster, cheaper for everyone, and easier to use. That sums up the situation for me. Having a marketplace for purely digital goods might be a concept with a future. Having standard ways to interoperate between different platforms and query and update these goods might make sense (althou…

The problem with traditional authority models is that the authority may disappear or be subverted. In regions with unstable governments you cannot rely on the government to keep saying that your house is your house. This is why I think the really valuable and underserved use case of the blockchain is decentralized identity. You can prove you are who you say, you’ve studied where you claim, you’ve worked at the places…

> This is why I think the really valuable and underserved use case of the blockchain is decentralized identity. You can prove you are who you say, you’ve studied where you claim, you’ve worked at the places on your resume, and do this in ways that cannot be subverted or lost. This would be invaluable for refugees who often struggle for months or years with proving they are who they are.

That's a very interesting use case, but it's hard for me to see exactly how this can be made to work.

Suppose you study at the National University of Unstabilia, which is located in a disaster-prone and conflict-riven environment. You complete your B.A. there, and you get the NUU to record this fact on a public blockchain.

A few years later, things are really bad in Unstabilia, so you move to Belgium. After you arrive there, you tell someone (maybe a prospective employer?) "hey, I'm Joeri, I'm a refugee from Unstabilia, and I have a B.A. degree!". For some reason this person is skeptical, so you say "it's OK, just look up the blockchain record with the following hash!".

Sure enough, the public blockchain contains an entry reflecting that someone named Joeri did, indeed, earn a B.A. at NUU a few years back. This is great, because maybe

* Unstabilia City was mostly destroyed in an earthquake, making it hard to contact people there, and many of the people who would have known you during your studies have likely died or become refugees themselves; and

* Lately, the new NUU administration really hates your ethnic group, so much so that it prefers to deny that people of your ethnicity were just recently widely represented among its student body; and

* Many of NUU's records were previously lost in a fire; and

* Before that, someone reputedly hacked NUU's computer systems and stole all of their records, and probably all of their cryptographic keys.

But thanks to the blockchain records, your new Belgian friends can still confirm that you actually studied at NUU, right?

But, how do they know that that record is really from NUU? How do they know that NUU really exists? How do they know what its signing keys were, and how long they remained under the university administration's control? How do they know whether it's a legitimate university? And, maybe most significantly, how do they know that you're the same Joeri who earned that degree back in the day, as opposed to some other Joeri? Are these records including some kind of digitally signed biometrics?

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#728

Thin clients that verify transactions are possible though. For something like Bitcoin you have SPV-proofs that prove chains of headers. You can prove that a transaction was included in the longest chain without having to run a node yourself just by checking proof-of-work merkle trees; Even if the vast majority of users end up running clients that don't verify the whole chain -- cryptographic trust would still be ensu…

I understand the criticism to be targeted at the "web3" idea, which is assumed to be about the infrastructure for decentralized applications. What is possible to implement is less relevant than what is likely to get implemented: here the clients (read: the app on the mobile) and their means of accessing the decentralized goodness matters. The argument as I understand it is: if access/usage to whatever decentralized goods is always mediated by the old centralized approach (you have to ask the server whether the transaction is valid) then you trust the operators of the servers and those folks have the option of making "everything" (access to those services/goods) faster & better. It is like the "last mile" problem where a company may well operate a global network but have no setup to act as ISP for end consumers, which is left to mediator. This is compatible with "web2" (https vpns etc) but the "web3" answer seems to be missing.

The problem is that benefits of well-thought out incentive systems evaporate when access is mediated. If every dapp comes with its own mobile client and app-specific servers to address this, there is nothing decentralized about it.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#729
post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crypto has been solving technical problem after technical problem for over a decade but has yet to offer anything useful to a non-enthusiast. This is too dismissive of Crypto. I’m not a crypto bro but Bitcoin did actually solve a real problem: a completely digital decentralized immutable record. I hesitate to call it a currency, but it created something that was digitally scarce . The economic value it created can…

> Bitcoin did actually solve a real problem: a completely digital decentralized immutable record. That doesn't describe a problem though, it describes a technical solution. > I hesitate to call it a currency, but it created something that was digitally scarce. My comment was about web3 really and the associated hype, not so much cryptocurrencies themselves. I agree there's something there, though not entirely convinc…

>> Bitcoin did actually solve a real problem: a completely digital decentralized immutable record.

> That doesn't describe a problem though, it describes a technical solution.

The problem is that we can't seem to form consensus in a world inundated with technology. Bitcoin and other chains have shown that you can create a state that reaches consensus under specified rules that are enforceable by computation and not violence.

Yes it has many problems, and the consensus is limited to the blockchain "world", but I envision a future where block chains can be valuable "truth" layers to the computation stack that society operates on.

Practically, I believe blockchains can be solution for creating online decentralized identity (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/security/business/identity-a...), which will help solve our information consensus problems (https://consilienceproject.org/democracy-and-the-epistemic-c...).

I also believe they have much to offer in modernizing the financial system, and providing better ways for governments to implement monetary policy.

Re: My First Impressions of Web3

#730
post #703
post #29

>When you think about it, OpenSea would actually be much “better” in the immediate sense if all the web3 parts were gone. It would be faster, cheaper for everyone, and easier to use. That sums up the situation for me. Having a marketplace for purely digital goods might be a concept with a future. Having standard ways to interoperate between different platforms and query and update these goods might make sense (althou…

The problem with traditional authority models is that the authority may disappear or be subverted. In regions with unstable governments you cannot rely on the government to keep saying that your house is your house. This is why I think the really valuable and underserved use case of the blockchain is decentralized identity. You can prove you are who you say, you’ve studied where you claim, you’ve worked at the places…

None of that requires a blockchain. The same level of investment in digitization to get all of this info on to a blockchain could be used to publish it to the cloud, secured and authenticated by cryptography.

The blockchain gets you exchange, with completely transparent meditation, in the form of the smart contract / script code.

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