Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#721

Post by asciident » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:37 AM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #274

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

> But they will, they will go down the street But... why? To save a couple bucks on a burger? This is a serious question. Is this really how consumer behavior works in the restaurant industry? Restaurant food isn't actually a commodity. A burger from one place can be quite different from a burger at another. Even at the low end -- I much prefer McD's to the other fast food joints. Atmospheres can be very different as…

Yeah I think you're unusual.

I and my family each have price points in my head, once a restaurant charges more than that on the total line, we look for other options. $5 for good enough lunch, $10 for a great lunch, $20 for gourmet lunch, $20 for a great dinner, $40 for gourmet dinner.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#722

Post by 6510 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #657

lanstin wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally the math works the other way. I worked in a Wendy's for a while; I made minimum wage and most of the people made a little bit more. We cleared $30,000 a month profit for the owner ($100K revenue, $70K for expenses including all of our wages). If a company is so inept they can't generate a bit of value from people, then to be frank, as a society we can afford to be without them. Look at the minimum wage as a…

So if someone else is willing to work for those wages (they don’t really need the income or have minimal expenses) you’d tell them “tough, it’s illegal to work for that wage now”?

That question never happens in places with a minimum wage. What you can do is support your employer by showing up early and/or helping out a few extra hours after the shift. Nothing in writing or by force.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#723

Post by ruined » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

mannerheim wrote: post #661

ruined wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

everyone i know who has worked tipped and untipped service models preferred the untipped model for stability and the reduced interference of sadistic/irate/careless customers. in fact these people have been pretty instrumental in wider implementation as they have moved on to other work environments and advocated for that change. this is in a state that doesn’t count tips toward minimum wage. the largest harm of the t…

If that were the case, then why did restaurants that switched to no-tipping models see the departure of much of their staff? [0] I would have expected servers to flock to those, but by the sound of it, tipping is reliable enough that servers can leave and go to a restaurant with tips and earn more money. > “Andrew was very disappointed,” says an employee of Tarlow’s restaurant group, Marlow Collective, who asked to r…

of course you'll see staff leave if you cut pay. that's a deliberate choice by management, and not a question about tipped or untipped work.

i doubt there is real effect on the orders that customers place, but nobody's publishing their books, so who can say. in a systemic change in which every restaurant transitions to an untipped system, there would be no concern about losing out to a restaurant that continues to lower prices by exploiting servers.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#724

Post by ehnto » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

pyuser583 wrote: post #715

ehnto wrote: post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please think about the holistic nature of your argument. The sum of it's parts essentially suggests that taxpayers should subsidize the employment costs of businesses, which is ridiculous.

Aren’t you essentially saying that because the government spends lots of money on welfare/social support, it gets to control private business too? If the state chooses to offer benefits, great! But the state shouldn’t blame businesses having to offer those benefits. If the state wants people to have more money than the market provides, the state can simply increase benefits to that level. Wage subsidies are supported…

I think you are right in a way, but all we are doing is setting a minimum market rate for employees so that they can't be exploited. If a business can't afford that employee at that rate then it can't afford to do business without being exploitive and so it needs to reconfigure itself until it can.

I am not saying it's a net good or bad for the economy by the way, I don't think I am qualified for that. But I can tell be pretty confident that exploitive wages are bad for employees and good for employers, a balance for which we have a lever to adjust.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#725

Post by bryanrasmussen » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

deburo wrote: post #618

blihp wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 10% margin also often doesn't tell the whole story of how they make their money. Nearly since its inception, a substantial portion of McDonald's long term profit came from the appreciation of the real estate the stores were built on. Operating a business on it just made it cash flow positive during the holding period. So it was essentially a REIT that happened to operate a fast food chain. Even for many mom-and-pop…

>If they honestly can't afford to pay a living wage It's not logical to kill businesses by arbitrarily raising the minimum wage. Do you think the people they employ are better off not working at all? These people may not have a decent enough salary, but they get to work as opposed to staying at home and degenerate (mentally and physically). I always thought the better solution is to help them financially in other way…

>but they get to work as opposed to staying at home and degenerate (mentally and physically)

If I don't have a job I go workout during the day, learn new skills, and read. Without kids that is, with kids I take care of the kids.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#726

Post by porknubbins » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #691

atoav wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it. McDonalds pays minimum wages in most european nations, yet their menu isnt that much more expensive than in the US. Maybe they have a slimmer margin over here, but they are still profitable. That implies that the model is (in principle) just alright, but there are financial flows that will have to change in the US. Of course you don't like to pay more for the labor you use to generate profit — ideally…

Their menu may not appear much cheaper in the US, but McDonalds is much more aggressive with price discrimination here. You won't find the same promotions, value menu, and coupons in Europe.

McDonald's here pulled way back too though (last I checked before trying to eat healthier and deleting the app). Probably not the worst thing in the world to have fast food be a little more expensive.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#727

Post by ruined » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

kukx wrote: post #509

cbozeman wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please, define what is a poverty wage, it is important. The ability to afford adequate housing, food, and clothing. I'm not saying we should mandate people can afford a 1500 sq. ft. home, ribeye steaks every evening, and Ralph Lauren Polo threads, but how about at least a one bedroom, one bathroom apartment; nutritious, nourishing food; Walmart clothing at a minimum. > What is the change of the model in case of the…

> The ability to afford adequate housing, food, and clothing. I'm not saying we should mandate people can afford a 1500 sq. ft. home, ribeye steaks every evening, and Ralph Lauren Polo threads, but how about at least a one bedroom, one bathroom apartment; nutritious, nourishing food; Walmart clothing at a minimum. Now, what does adequate mean? I guess a place to sleep, a place to clean oneself, food and clothing seem…

>Now, what does adequate mean? I guess a place to sleep, a place to clean oneself, food and clothing seems like a reasonable bar for a wage above poverty. Are there many full time jobs in the US that do not allow that?

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/minimum-wage-workers-cannot-...

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#728

Post by _qwfv » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #518

inetknght wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you elaborate on this? $7.25 8 hours = $58. It's hard to imagine expenses adding up anywhere close to $58/day, especially if you factor in that in high cost of living areas the minimum wage is also higher than $7.25.* Wow can you be any more out of touch? Your comment is offensively innaccurate. $58/day = $1740 for 30 days Unhealthy cheap carbs for a single person... $200/month (chicken, beans, rice, milk, chee…

You’re clearly out of touch and over inflating numbers. $200/month for groceries is nothing but cheap carbs? $1400/month for rent? Are they living in their own 1 bedroom in the middle of the city?

$50/week in food is doable, but it takes some careful planning. I'd be impressed at someone who could purchase fresh vegetables and fruit, balanced whole grain carbs, and a healthy protein of their choice, spices sufficient to produce a reasonable variety of meals, plus some occasional luxury food items for that budget.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#729

Post by 6510 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:53 AM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #640

Spooky23 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> define what is a poverty wage, it is important. If you work full time as an adult and are Medicaid eligible, you’re being paid poverty wages. > What is the change of the model in case of the restaurant? Raise the prices. It’s already happened anyway, the market has plenty of elasticity. Restauranteurs always whine about how impossible it is to raise prices, yet they seem to manage to do so just fine.

That’s a really excellent idea. On the off chance that you may be wrong in a few cases, what happens if you go out of business after raising your prices enough to get wages high enough to be where you think they should be?

There is a working restaurant a few blocks away.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#730

Post by Frondo » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:58 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #657

lanstin wrote: post #585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally the math works the other way. I worked in a Wendy's for a while; I made minimum wage and most of the people made a little bit more. We cleared $30,000 a month profit for the owner ($100K revenue, $70K for expenses including all of our wages). If a company is so inept they can't generate a bit of value from people, then to be frank, as a society we can afford to be without them. Look at the minimum wage as a…

So if someone else is willing to work for those wages (they don’t really need the income or have minimal expenses) you’d tell them “tough, it’s illegal to work for that wage now”?

Since that is how the relatively uncontroversial minimum wage law (which has been around since 1938) works, yes, society has generally decided that we do want to tell people, "it is illegal to work for some very low wage." And, while not the parent poster, I agree that it is a useful policy.