dang, where is your pearl-clutching at all the casual ableism in this thread? Commenters are literally calling for the exclusion of people with autism from society. Can you take time out of your busy schedule banning anyone with diverging political views to take a look at the real problems in this thread?
Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
721–730 of 943 posts
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#722Earlier quoted context omitted.
But it was no vague anonymous - he once hit on me - lynch mob, but very concrete criticism of RMS. Things he said and did in the past - and in the present. (only thing would be, that his "voluntary resign" was obviously done with a lot of pressure)
Is it bad for a man to hit on a woman?
The norms around dating in liberal America have completely diverged from the ground reality.
Statistically, you are 3x as likely to meet your future spouse in the workplace than a bar/club.[1]
Let's take a look at the stereotypical man in STEM:
* Looks: Below 80 %ile --> Failure at Tinder[2]
* Socially: Below average --> No romantically successful friends groups to set them up
* Early life: Never cool in school / male dominant peer group --> Still single by the time they graduate
This massively raises the stakes of a workplace romantic encounter, because every other avenue has already been shut in their face.
At this point, "it's only harassment if you are undesirable" is a well known anecdote. So, uncharismatic + unattractive men are basically doomed. The alternative is to fully acknowledge the brutally objectifying nature of it all, objectify yourself and go for obnoxious outward displays of desirability. Ie. "look expensive" and target demographics that value your ability to be gainfully employed and accumulate moderate wealth.
The harder alternative is to hit the gym, learn social skills and actually learn how to be charismatic. This is way harder, especially when society actively ostracizes you. Like trying to make a fish climb a tree.
[1] https://www.pnas.org/content/110/25/10135
[2] https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-g...
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#723Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Because I do not see that in there. It's in the last paragraph.
Ok. My bad then. If this is true, it changes maybe some things. And I lack the sources, but I recall people saying that the sign was there for quite a while, even if he did not wrote that by himself. And I actually would like a quote from him, to confirm that he did not write it. All that is in that source is someone saying it was not put up by him. If it was really put up by someone else, it would be the question if…
Why not email and ask him? Just make sure that you are polite. He replies to pretty much everyone.
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#724Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I guess if some billionaire flew me to a private island in the Carribean where young attractive girls started throwing themselves at me, and I was the age and... attractiveness of Minsky, giant alarm bells would have been blaring in my head [...] As you may or may not know, some women will voluntarily have sex with men in exchange for money, no coercion or assault required. If a billionaire flew you to a private is…
>As you may or may not know, some women will voluntarily have sex with men in exchange for money, no coercion or assault required. Which is also illegal. And if you're having sex with a teenager for money, she probably has some pretty major life issues going on. Which as a 60-year-old - you should know better. Period. >If a billionaire flew you to a private island with attractive woman offering to have sex with you,…
if you're having sex with a teenager for money, she probably has some pretty major life issues going on
Once in a year I end up in a local strip club (non-US; never had sex or something there, but it’s not uncommon for guests to “continue elsewhere”). Spoke with many of girls, and they are usually not poor or orphaned, it’s just the way of life. “Don’t wanna to sit in office for a mediocre pay”. They are yesterday’s teenagers who sometimes earn as much as local software guys or lawyers in their 30s.
Which as a 60-year-old - you should know better
As such an experienced person you’d know how different people are and how many world niches exist beyond a “normal life”.
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#725Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've always been against this scarlet letter mentality that seems pervasive. I've also been vocally against RMS's particular brand of outreach as being incredibly alienating of the people whose opinions he actually needs to address. Admittedly, if he does have autism there's a ton of things that start to make sense, speaking from my own experiences with and around it, but I can't actually find a reference to any conf…
Would his getting a diagnosis and publicly sharing that private medical information make you start treating him as an actual human being, or nah?
I would disagree with his rhetorical stylings whether or not he had autism, and probably wouldn't change much in the way of how I disagreed or really talked about him.
> publicly sharing that private medical information
Are we gonna side-step the fact that he's publicly stated in several interviews that he suspects that he's on the spectrum, or nah?
> make you start treating him as an actual human being
In what way have I not?
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#726Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can understand what Stallman meant, but I am not at all surprised at the reaction. This particular case has little to do with him hitting on women around him. This had been happening for decades and most people just rolled their eyes and made fun of him behind his back about it. This had everything to do with MIT's exposure to Epstein. MIT gets outed as having numerous researchers who took money from and traveled w…
"... and Stallman writes an e-mail that sounds very much as if he's obliquely defending Epstein" Complete misinterpretation of what RMS has written about. He defended Minsky, not Epstein.
It doesn't matter. He waded into a giant scandal and published something that sounded like he was defending the whole thing. I can't think of a single institution that this would not get you fired from, usually within hours.
Hell CEOs can be fired for such things... unless they have Elon Musk or Steve Jobs levels of reality distortion fields and cult followings.
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#727Mob justice is not OK just because women do it. If these women have anything substantial they should make formal reports/complaints, not anonymous vogue statements like, "he make me feel uncomfortable". Cannot believe that one even has to say this. Why are women always presumed to be innocent and men always presumed to be guilty? Also, frankly, there is a point at which, certain behaviour might make you feel uncomfor…
I find it embarrassing that this is the top comment on this post. Not only is this comment mostly incoherent, it's pretty far from the facts at hand. These aren't hard to find, you can search Google or read the paragraph on Stallman's Wikipedia page.[0] Richard Stallman attempt to defend Marvin Minsky's involvement with Jeffrey Epstein was offensive. CNet[1] has a recap of the email thread (I believe Motherboard firs…
I'm trying to understand what you are accusing him of... but I don't actually see any actions or conduct towards real life individuals.
It seems like you're offended by his opinions to the point that you think he should be removed from his career - which also has nothing to do with the subject of the comments he made.
I'm also glad you posted his specific comments so that people can see what all this drama is about - instead of the vague name-calling.
On the surface, his two comments seem at least rational - even if I don't agree with them. Is it "moral" to define the same act as "rape" depending upon which country it occurs? That's a pretty reasonable question. Is it plausible than the victim in the case above "presented herself" as willing? I don't know - that's plausible I suppose, isn't it?
What's so heinous about these comments that you think he should have his career destroyed?
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#728Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Where? Even within the US, prostitution laws vary wildly. I guess it's fortunate we have that information: Minsky is from Massachusets: illegal. Guifreye and Epstein Florida: illegal. Little St. James: illegal. >Did Minsky know that they weren't adults? Do you have a source for that? You entirely missed the point. A 60 year old man sleeping with someone young enough to be his granddaughter is disgusting. Full stop.…
> You entirely missed the point. A 60 year old man sleeping with someone young enough to be his granddaughter is disgusting. Full stop. You're moving the goal post. At first your claim was that Minsky should have known the women were coerced because otherwise they wouldn't have had sex with him. Now that I've refuted your claim, you shifted your position to, paraphrased, "he's a criminal because what he did offends m…
>You're moving the goal post. At first your claim was that Minsky should have known the women were coerced because otherwise they wouldn't have had sex with him. Now that I've refuted your claim, you shifted your position to, paraphrased, "he's a criminal because what he did offends my moral compass".
I didn't shift my claim in the least, you attempted to imply that prostitution is legal. I pointed out that regardless of the fact you're wrong, and it isn't legal, it's disgusting. No goal post was moved, you just keep doubling down on something that is both morally reprehensible AND illegal.
>That's not a valid definition of "sex trafficking", which requires an individual to be exploited and/or coerced to perform sexual acts. We don't know whether Minsky had reason to presume that the women were exploited and/or coerced, and we don't know whether Minsky had reason to presume that the women were minors.
Except it doesn't. In fact the law states the exact opposite of your claim. You're batting 0 trying to defend sexual predators here.
https://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/787.06
>(g) For commercial sexual activity in which any child under the age of 18 is involved commits a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life, or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. In a prosecution under this paragraph in which the defendant had a reasonable opportunity to observe the person who was subject to human trafficking, the state need not prove that the defendant knew that the person had not attained the age of 18 years.
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#729Earlier quoted context omitted.
His inappropriate behavior toward women is well documented. One example where women traded advice on how to keep him away. https://mobile.twitter.com/starsandrobots/status/99426727746...
This is hearsay...if it is well documented may be it would help to provide an example of bad behavior from someone who dealt with it directly.
https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix...
Among other examples:
“When I was a teen freshman, I went to a buffet lunch at an Indian restaurant in Central Square with a graduate student friend and others from the AI lab. I don’t know if he and I were the last two left, but at a table with only the two of us, Richard Stallman told me of his misery and that he’d kill himself if I didn’t go out with him. I felt bad for him and also uncomfortable and manipulated. I did not like being put in that position — suddenly responsible for an “important” man. What had I done to get into this situation? I decided I could not be responsible for his living or dying, and would have to accept him killing himself. I declined further contact. He was not a man of his word or he’d be long dead.” —Betsy S., Bachelor’s in Management Science, ’85
His social cluelessness is legendary--no one really disputes it. Why it wouldn't be true toward women as well, I have no idea.
I'm sure you will find a way to dismiss this, but there are plenty of stories out there if you look.
Re: Richard Stallman is coming back to the board of the FSF
#730Earlier quoted context omitted.
Age of consent is seriously tricky business. And I think that's in part because it's really two things which are muddled together: young people having sex with each other; and older people having sex with younger people. It is absolutely fine for young people to consent to having sex with other young people. A minimum age makes little sense there. Very young kids do stupid things all the time, including touching each…
> But once she turned 16, she was suddenly a pedophile and a stutory rapist because I was only 15? Again, that seems insane. After some high-profile cases (usually involving minorities and disapproving parents), some states in the US have corrected this via "Romeo and Juliet Laws". (Had to look into this due to having a bit younger girlfriend right around that age) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape#Romeo_a…
I had the misfortune to let my self get sucked into an argument which required me to comb through the California laws on this topic. The laws seemed to me to be a reasonable attempt at a balance.