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Ask HN: What are some “10x” software product innovations you have experienced?

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Re: Ask HN: What are some “10x” software product innovations you have experienced?

#721
post #434

Showing my age here, heh: 1. Early Ruby on Rails -- Now that MVC/ORM packges are the norm, it's hard to describe how revolutionary the original '15 minute blog' video was. It really felt like a quantum leap for CRUD apps. 2. Uber/Lyft - It has literally remolded the city I live in, by making large areas that are transit-inconvenient more attractive to live in. 3. Linode -- Access to a cheap server that you could spin…

I lived half of my adult life in a major city before Uber/Lyft, and yet it is unimaginable what life was like before them. Did I really get ready for a night out and go out in the rain desperately waving for a cab?

> go out in the rain desperately waving for a cab

That's mind boggling. All my life I've been able to call central dispatch and order a taxi to a pick-up address of my choice.

Re: Ask HN: What are some “10x” software product innovations you have experienced?

#722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respect that WebForms had a decent concept for RAD, copying VB6’s “drag and drop components, write glue-logic to make them work together”, the problem is that you had to give up a lot of control over the generated HTML, which was a huge problem because the generated HTML was awful, like “1998’s HTML in 2006”-awful, to put it succinctly. WebForms supported item-templates, but using them was hard, and you still could…

I will agree with some of your criticisms. However there are some things that aren't pertinent. While the HTML is awful in earlier versions was IME of no concern. Most intranet apps just need to be functional not slick. I am sure it served different HTML based on the user-agent but I could be mis-remembering now as it was well over 15 years ago. The lack of being able to run it on anything other than IIS isn't a conc…

> I am sure it served different HTML based on the user-agent but I could be mis-remembering now as it was well over 15 years ago.

It did - but the "different HTML" you refer to was HTML4 for IE5.5+ or HTML3 to browsers it didn't recognize. Even by 2001 that was a bad idea, and by 2004 Firefox was leagues ahead of IE6's support for HTML and CSS features yet ASP.NET WebForms defaults to rendering HTML3-era HTML to Firefox.

...and don't forget all of the problems inherent in user-agent sniffing. Users with too many third-party IE toolbars or shovelware on their computers would see things break (because said third-party software would frequently alter IE's default user-agent string to add their own product-names, which broke things).

> The lack of being able to run it on anything other than IIS isn't a concern

It was a *huge* concern because it meant that web-application code could not be run by automated testing tools! That was one of the design-objectives when OWIN was introduced: for greater testability (for unit and integration testing). Otherwise the only way to test WebForms applications was by having a dedicated web-testing farm with web-browsers open on the desktop driven by custom-written automation tools - that just wasn't an option for smaller shops. And Visual Studio didn't add built-in unit testing support until 2005 (only for Enterprise edition), and 2008 (or 2010?) for everybody else.

Another problem was that in the days of WebForms 1.x (before .NET 2.0) the only way to run ASP.NET applications, even for development, was by having IIS installed - but IIS was not available for Windows XP Home Edition (ASP.NET 2.0 introduced the "Cassini" local development web-server, but it was severely lacking and did not faithfully recreate the IIS environment, and IIS Express wasn't introduced until around 2008). People doing hobbyist development at home had to either pay to upgrade to Windows XP Professional (to use the rather limited IIS "5.1") or apply a variety of crude registry hacks to trick the Windows 2000-era IIS 5.0 to run on Windows XP Home Edition.

> Most of the problems I've encountered was when people tried getting around the framework itself and rebuilding what already worked quite well within the framework

What works "quite well" is subjective. ViewState just doesn't scale and is unsuitable for public Internet websites because it balloons the rendered page-size (e.g. if you have an , used as-directed such that it's only loaded on the initial page laod) then the entire data-grid's data is persisted in ViewState, which practically quadruples your rendered page-size (due to all the hidden control state) - which was unacceptable in the days when 56K modem use was still widespread (even through to ~2006+). Disabling ViewState was essential for any public web-pages, which increased the amount of work required to get things to _just work_. I could go on...

Re: Ask HN: What are some “10x” software product innovations you have experienced?

#723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was the entrypoint to Firefox for millions of people. Unlike today, back then Firefox had a clearly expressive value proposition: Use this! It has tabs! It will change how you browse the web! Now the only value proposition is some wishy-washy privacy stuff that is much harder to sell people on, even if it's in their best interest.

I believe opera had tabs for a while before Firefox. It was one of the main reasons I think I used opera for a good long while.

Opera had no real tabs at that time. It was still MDI with a button-bar for fast access. Was'nt the browser doing this at the time, and it was'nt as good as Mozillas Tab-addon, which later was built into first firefox-versions.

Opera added true tabs some versions later, while still hanging someway on the MDI-tradition.

Re: Ask HN: What are some “10x” software product innovations you have experienced?

#724

Showing my age here, heh: 1. Early Ruby on Rails -- Now that MVC/ORM packges are the norm, it's hard to describe how revolutionary the original '15 minute blog' video was. It really felt like a quantum leap for CRUD apps. 2. Uber/Lyft - It has literally remolded the city I live in, by making large areas that are transit-inconvenient more attractive to live in. 3. Linode -- Access to a cheap server that you could spin…

Re: Age

C with Classes was a very welcome advancement over C.

Watcom C/C++ compiler with DOS/4G extender was a pure fucking miracle. Need 1MB in one chunk? Just call the damn malloc().

Windows NT was a phenomenal leap forward for desktop OSes.

Re: Ask HN: What are some “10x” software product innovations you have experienced?

#725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will agree with some of your criticisms. However there are some things that aren't pertinent. While the HTML is awful in earlier versions was IME of no concern. Most intranet apps just need to be functional not slick. I am sure it served different HTML based on the user-agent but I could be mis-remembering now as it was well over 15 years ago. The lack of being able to run it on anything other than IIS isn't a conc…

> I am sure it served different HTML based on the user-agent but I could be mis-remembering now as it was well over 15 years ago. It did - but the "different HTML" you refer to was HTML4 for IE5.5+ or HTML3 to browsers it didn't recognize. Even by 2001 that was a bad idea, and by 2004 Firefox was leagues ahead of IE6's support for HTML and CSS features yet ASP.NET WebForms defaults to rendering HTML3-era HTML to Fire…

> It did - but the "different HTML" you refer to was HTML4 for IE5.5+ or HTML3 to browsers it didn't recognize. Even by 2001 that was a bad idea, and by 2004 Firefox was leagues ahead of IE6's support for HTML and CSS features yet ASP.NET WebForms defaults to rendering HTML3-era HTML to Firefox.

Intranet sites were run on highly locked down machines that were running IE. Don't pretend everyone was running their own browser on their machine. As I said it was intended for intranet sites, all the documentation and all the examples at the time clearly showed these user cases.

> ...and don't forget all of the problems inherent in user-agent sniffing. Users with too many third-party IE toolbars or shovelware on their computers would see things break (because said third-party software would frequently alter IE's default user-agent string to add their own product-names, which broke things).

So they were running third party things and it broke something else that had no knowledge of them. If someone runs hundreds of chrome extensions and it breaks my site, I wouldn't bother supporting them either. The situation isn't any different.

> It was a huge concern because it meant that web-application code could not be run by automated testing tools! That was one of the design-objectives when OWIN was introduced: for greater testability (for unit and integration testing). Otherwise the only way to test WebForms applications was by having a dedicated web-testing farm with web-browsers open on the desktop driven by custom-written automation tools - that just wasn't an option for smaller shops. And Visual Studio didn't add built-in unit testing support until 2005 (only for Enterprise edition), and 2008 (or 2010?) for everybody else.

Almost none of the shops were doing automated testing at the time. People barely do it now in the .NET space.

>Another problem was that in the days of WebForms 1.x (before .NET 2.0) the only way to run ASP.NET applications, even for development, was by having IIS installed - but IIS was not available for Windows XP Home Edition (ASP.NET 2.0 introduced the "Cassini" local development web-server, but it was severely lacking and did not faithfully recreate the IIS environment, and IIS Express wasn't introduced until around 2008). People doing hobbyist development at home had to either pay to upgrade to Windows XP Professional (to use the rather limited IIS "5.1") or apply a variety of crude registry hacks to trick the Windows 2000-era IIS 5.0 to run on Windows XP Home Edition.

So on an operating system that was intended for consumer use, they couldn't use advanced stuff like IIS that the home user wouldn't have any use for? Seriously?

> What works "quite well" is subjective. ViewState just doesn't scale and is unsuitable for public Internet websites because it balloons the rendered page-size (e.g. if you have an , used as-directed such that it's only loaded on the initial page laod) then the entire data-grid's data is persisted in ViewState, which practically quadruples your rendered page-size (due to all the hidden control state) - which was unacceptable in the days when 56K modem use was still widespread (even through to ~2006+). Disabling ViewState was essential for any public web-pages, which increased the amount of work required to get things to _just work_. I could go on...

None of this was intended for sites on the internet. I was specifically talking about the RAD tooling. Yet you seem to be talking about things it was never intended to do at the time.

Re: Ask HN: What are some “10x” software product innovations you have experienced?

#728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use a vertical tab extension, and with that I regularly get to > 1k tabs.

Different strokes for different folks but what on earth do you people do on 1000 or even 100 tabs? I have a handful of sites I regularly go to and maybe 50 that I visit more than occasionally. They’re all bookmarked. When I’m done browsing I close the window. What state are you preserving keeping everything open in a tab?

Often it will be documentation + stack overflow results. It can be handy to just leave that stuff open, because then you can find it easily. I do purge all tabs every now and again, but when there's no downside to leaving them open, they can build up for a month or so.

Re: Ask HN: What are some “10x” software product innovations you have experienced?

#729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Automatic device discovery and driver installation Fun story. Had Windows 7 installed on an old HDD. Decided to build myself a new PC, so I got all the parts (completely different setup than what the HDD had been in), put them all together, connected the HDD, and powered it on to see what would happen. I was shocked to see that Windows booted just fine with the new setup, like nothing had changed...

Yeah, Windows got a lot better at handling motherboard swaps. I remember trying to do a PC overhaul with Windows 2000. I swapped out the motherboard, RAM, and CPU, and Windows would fail to boot, crashing with an INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE error. IIRC, I managed to recover without wiping the drive and doing a clean install by putting back in the old mobo/RAM/CPU, booting up, and swapping the IDE driver from a motherboa…

Back in the day, I had a drive of Windows 98 that had been through two or three very different motherboards. It was a good day if it bluescreened only once, because it usually did more often.

Re: Ask HN: What are some “10x” software product innovations you have experienced?

#730
post #48

+ using Google for search in 2000 and being amazed at how much better the results were than AltaVista and Yahoo Search. + Google Maps in 2004 and dragging the map interactively around. This was a quantum leap beyond Mapquest's page reload and reset with cumbersome arrow buttons. This was a paradigm shift that let me explore a geography better than any book atlas. I gave away all my atlases + MS Window Media Player's…

I remember developing in the early 90s and there was no open source coding tools. It was miserable. One had to write everything from scratch or buy expensive libraries.

I do that, because I use a not popular enough programming language.
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