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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about you show me a single credible source that backs up your claim the logs were deleted? Quit being dishonest, or worse spreading ignorance by accident.

It's too difficult to decide credibility with the limited information we have and so the best thing to do is to look at opposing arguments to see which thing makes the most sense logically. In that respect, here is (I believe) the report which shows the numbers put out by the machine are not reliable, at least, and also gives evidence that 2020 log files were deleted whereas 2016 log files were not: https://www.9and1…

[deleted]

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time the states did something to check the integrity of the election, such as hand-recounting the ballots, or doing a signature verification audit, it was simply dismissed out of hand as a cover-up and not a real investigation. The bar set by the "stop the steal" crowd was that unless you uncovered that Donald Trump really won the election, you didn't investigate hard enough.

See my flagged comment below beginning with "The general consensus is that this was a dynamic hack". That explains why hand-recounting of ballots wouldn't make a difference. Also, I don't believe signature verification was widely used, or at least wasn't used in the critical swing states where it really mattered. It should be used everywhere considering the technology is mature enough and easily available.

This is exactly what I mean. The hand recount doesn't show the machines counted wrong, so conveniently you've got a workaround theory: "A specific number of newly created ballots could have been delivered during the after-hours(thanks to constitutionally illegal last-minute changes to voting laws in Democrat controlled states), and voter log-books could have been altered to match up with newly created ballots (hence the statistically improbable voter turnout in Democrat controlled areas)."

Sure, that version of events requires way more people in on the scam and would leave behind way more evidence, which hasn't turned up, but I can't prove it didn't happen so it's still totally worth investigating further.

GBI hand checked a random sample of 15K ballots in Cobb county for signature mismatch issues and found no fraudulent ballots, but that apparently doesn't count for anything, because they didn't look at Fulton county which is now where we're saying the fraud was. Cobb county still probably cheated the election since Biden won there, but they must've just forged the signatures too well.

And you like to pretend all you want is more election security and verifiability. Well gee, I'd like that too, as long as it doesn't compromise the secrecy of the ballot or the accessibility of voting to eligible voters. I think all software used in elections should be open source, for example. But there is a massive gulf between wanting better voting technology, and claiming that an election WAS stolen. The latter requires serious evidence. We do have some ways of verifying the election such as checking the paper trail, and when we've done that here, fraud hasn't shown up.

You'll always claim the investigation is insufficient unless it does find fraud, and completely discount the value of anything that confirms the count was correct. Yet you'll give credence to a "forensic report" from batshit crazy Russell Ramsland (mixed up MN and MI, claimed 781% turnout, claimed fractional vote counting based on rounded percentage numbers from NYT...)

Why is it so easy to believe that hundreds of poll workers, election officials, judges, governors, secretaries of state, etc. conspired to commit or cover up fraud, and are all lying about it - but hard to believe that Trump and his allies are the ones lying? Either way somebody is lying. And there are multiple occasions where I KNOW Giuliani said something that was complete BS -- such as that the number of mail-in ballots returned in PA exceeded the number requested. So it really wouldn't shock me at all to find out more, or all, of what he said was garbage.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps a more pertinent question comes from the perspective of realpolitik. Which is more damaging to US political institutions, having an illegitimate president or admitting that the election was stolen? I'd wager an admission of election changing fraud would make it almost impossible to recover any trust in political institutions. What would be the next steps from admitting that the election was fraudulent? Given…

> what can be done to restore trust? given the foregoing, are you sure you want people to trust the government?

It would be nice if people could trust the outcome of the election. More specifically, it would be nice if establishment media and political figures didn't respond to this distrust with castigation.

Distrusting government would still make sense for me personally. It would be idyllic if people looked towards decentralization, localism and private solutions. Trust in their local institutions or community, while drastically reducing the purview of the federal government. That's just my personal preference. I'm not sure it is applicable in the widespread, pragmatic sense.

Some kind of political figure reaching across the aisle, recognizing the concerns of those who feel disenfranchised looks like the pragmatic solution that isn't happening. Instead I see actions and accusations that are predictably creating more division.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about you show me a single credible source that backs up your claim the logs were deleted? Quit being dishonest, or worse spreading ignorance by accident.

It's too difficult to decide credibility with the limited information we have and so the best thing to do is to look at opposing arguments to see which thing makes the most sense logically. In that respect, here is (I believe) the report which shows the numbers put out by the machine are not reliable, at least, and also gives evidence that 2020 log files were deleted whereas 2016 log files were not: https://www.9and1…

>We reviewed the Tabulation logs in their entirety for 11/6/2020. The election logs for Antrim County consist of 15,676 total lines or events. Of the 15,676 there were a total of 10,667 critical errors/warnings or a 68.05% error rate.

>The allowable election error rate established by the Federal Election Commission guidelines is of 1 in 250,000 ballots (.0008%). We observed an error rate of 68.05%. This demonstrated a significant and fatal error in security and election integrity.

The first one sounds like they're looking at warning logs the program outputs. Those could be startup logs completely unrelated to ballots. The percent of your program's log lines that are warning logs cannot be in any way compared to the Federal Election Commission guidelines on how often a ballot can be miscounted.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#725

Ken White has been talking about the potential for this suit for a couple weeks now. He spends a lot of time talking about what isn't defamation --- people use defamation suits and threats thereof to chill free speech, and he's a 1st Amendment guy --- but the Dominion cases are apparently examples of very serious defamation cases. The core of defamation is (1) a false statement of purported fact that (2) causes damag…

Here's something I've found super interesting.

There is a defamation lawyer right in the middle of the "election was stolen" story. Lin Wood.

All of this almost makes me think the Trump-side lawyers ganged up to force this outcome given that Lin Wood presumably knows what he is doing in the business.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you used the combination of FOSS and a blockchain ledger?

Say more about how a blockchain ledger could allow verifying what software is running on a device? The only way I can think of to actually do this is to have some trusted party go out and randomly sample voting machines (i.e. check the software on the disk matches the reproducible builds of the open source software, and decap the machine's CPU and other hardware to verify there's no bugs). Anything else can be foiled…

If there was a whole new voting system built from scratch, couldn't it be designed to use some sort of integrity key in combination with each voter's personal key? Kind of like how some CDNs have an integrity attribute to ensure the CDN's source code hasn't been manipulated.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the last sentence of that link (emphasis added): > The distinction between decisions that rest on the merits rather than on procedural grounds is important because a decision on the merits is considered final and is thus bound by res judicata... Decisions that do not rest on the merits, however, are not bound by res judicata because the claims were not properly heard. Thus, these claims may be brought forth in a…

This is correct. The problem above was conflating "on the merits" with determining facts by considering evidence.

> This is correct.

Your comment appears to imply otherwise. Did I misread it?

> conflating "on the merits" with determining facts by considering evidence.

Do you mind elaborating on the difference?

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#728
post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russell’s teapot doesn’t fit in this case. Paper ballots exist. Many were manually recounted (whether by optical scanner or by hand). Are there actually claims of miscounted votes that you feel were miscounted or incorrectly treated that you feel are verifiable? (And haven’t already been refuted via evidence)

> . Many were manually recounted (whether by optical scanner or by hand). My understanding is that in several places the envelopes in which the ballots were sent were allegedly prone to irregularities and the ballots have been extracted anyway and the envelopes disposed of, so recounts would by default take in account faulty/incomplete ballots if this actually happened. (no idea if the claim is true, however)

>envelopes disposed of

Are envelopes generally involved? In the Antrim County dispute[1] it sounds like they use Image Cast Precinct (ICP) tabulators[2][3]. This[4] appears to be a video of one in use[5], and it doesn't seem to involve an envelope. If there's 100% mail-in voting then yes every ballot would have an envelope. But if there's any less than 100% then there will be less envelopes than ballots, so I'm not sure envelopes would be too useful for recounts.

[1] https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/12/14/m...

[2] https://www.michigan.gov/documents/ag/SOS_Benson_Response_An...

[3] https://www.9and10news.com/content/uploads/2020/12/Antrim_Mi...

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4l3eKRJv4

[5] https://verifiedvoting.org/election-system/dominion-imagecas...

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#729
post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russell’s teapot doesn’t fit in this case. Paper ballots exist. Many were manually recounted (whether by optical scanner or by hand). Are there actually claims of miscounted votes that you feel were miscounted or incorrectly treated that you feel are verifiable? (And haven’t already been refuted via evidence)

Just FYI, some machines work as follows: * Scan in ballot * If there is an error in the ballot, send for adjudication * Original ballot gets lost (destroyed?) In one case, there is a clip of an official saying that they had a 60% adjudication rate which is concerning. Basically saying that 60% of votes were decided by people other than the voters.

> * Original ballot gets lost (destroyed?)

Do you have a source for that? Michigan's response in the Antrim County dispute (which I think you're referring to by "60% adjudication rate") seems to say the original hand marked ballots are retained:

>Because voting tabulators in Michigan use hand marked, paper ballots, any alleged errors in tabulators can be caught during a hand recount, which any candidate could have requested in Antrim County.

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/ag/SOS_Benson_Response_An...

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#730
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> their machines do generate a paper trail Not the same kind of paper trail that exists when a voter fills out a paper ballot. If I fill out a paper ballot, that ballot is independent evidence of the votes I intended to cast, because I filled it out directly, with no machine in the middle. So that paper ballot is a useful auditing mechanism for checking on machine-generated vote counts. If I electronically cast votes…

In NY, you do fill out a paper ballot, it's scanned, done. I assume they keep the ballots in case they need to count them... I was curious who makes the voting machines that are used here. It's apparently a company called ES&S: "Election Systems and Software (ES&S) 11208 John Galt Blvd, Omaha NE" https://www.essvote.com/

> John Galt Blvd

Someone has a sense of humor, at least.

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