A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #611

onion2k wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear to me that these are people who are unwilling to sacrifice some of the money they earn to follow their ideals and principles, so they are trying this instead. Employees pushing for change from the inside is probably the only thing that could ever make Google change, so this is absolutely a good thing. If you are an engineer at Google and can't get a job somewhere else, I don't know what to tell you. So…

Oh, the perils of having a 600k TC job and having to step down to a job only clearing 250k while you climb the ladder again. Oh those poor senior Google SWEs. That’s not being trapped. That’s being greedy. There’s nothing wrong with trying to preserve massive TCs with the WLB of Google but let’s not pretend there is actually any plight here.

[deleted]

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by BitwiseFool » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

crisdux wrote: post #277

After reading the NYT article and browsing their website - they seem to be mainly concerned with getting the company to bend to various social justice causes and getting the company to adopt politically motivated strategy changes. So I'm a bit confused. This doesn't seem like the purpose of a labor union in the traditional sense. What am I missing here?

Nothing really, it just looks like a way to create a formal progressive institution within Google using existing legal frameworks.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by tick_tock_tick » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:22 PM UTC

rafram wrote: post #501

ransom1538 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

unintended consequences 1. Fat cats. What are the due fees? %1 now?, later then? %5 of gross annually? 200 people * 300k year * %5 of salary = 3 million. They will use this on fancy dinners with Google execs? Or spend it in "wrongful terminations" law suites with google for years? What happens when 50x more join. 2. Who runs it? Will it be a 10 year long president? What is her union salary? A non-google person? Will…

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> 6. Yes, you’ll have to join the Communist Party of America and pledge allegiance to AOC in order to even join the zoom call, of course. Because that’s how unions work

You might say that as a joke but Unions have a long history of heavily pressuring or forcing members to vote one way and in turn using these "guaranteed" votes to extract "favors" from politicians.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by kenjackson » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

> engineers can "collectively bargain" with Google by simply leaving and working somewhere "better".

To do this as a group you will still benefit from an organization to manage it. Its a lot more effective to say, "Stop doing this or we 1500 engineers are all leaving on Feb 1" versus a bunch of engineers seemingly random quitting (although for similar reasons).

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by yibg » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

karl11 wrote: post #60

Don't think we've ever seen Hollywood in the modern era without unions, so not sure how you can claim it's "undeniable" the industry is better off. We basically have no clue if it's better off or not. Unions are intended for industries where a worker doesn't have a marketplace of options as there is a single or just a few employers (e.g. Hollywood, teachers, coal mining towns, hospital staff, etc.). Unionizing at Goo…

Also, unions are about balance of power. Giving more bargaining power (collectively) to people that otherwise don't have much bargaining power.

Most people in tech, and especially so at places like google don't feel like they have low bargaining power. So I think the perception is, not only is there not much to be gained by unionizing, there is potentially more to lose by giving up individual bargaining power to the union. So basically losing autonomy and control for some unknown and fuzzy benefit.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by dundarious » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:32 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #630

capableweb wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What in the mission statement seems to be "personal agendas" to you? Here they are listed: - All Alphabet workers deserve a voice - Social and economic justice are paramount to achieving just outcomes - Everyone deserves a welcoming environment - All aspects of our work should be transparent - Our decisions are made democratically - We prioritize society and the environment - We stand in solidarity with workers and a…

This reads like a PAC not a Union. Here’s a statement from United Steelworkers, for comparison; https://m.usw.org/union/our-founding-principles Here’s the SAG mission statement; https://www.sagaftra.org/about/mission-statement The primary goal of a union is to ensure safe and secure working conditions, the best compensation and benefits, etc.; > negotiating the best wages, working conditions, and health and pension b…

I agree somewhat, the values are a bit wishy-washy, like Google's original "Don't be evil". But I think the dramatically different circumstances of our time are playing a huge role in the distinction you're drawing.

USW were fighting for the abolition of child labor -- this is not a direct concern for Alphabet employees, thankfully. Actor's Equity Association were fighting against McCarthyism and blacklisting (which SAG participated in, and apologized for in 1997).

In particular, for the Alphabet union effort, I think their press release[0] is more concrete. I think the goals of increased workplace democracy, pressuring management to prevent pushing externalities, and preventing suppression and retaliation in the workplace are pretty relevant, and would be high on my list for a prospective union for tech workers.

Ironically, I think they would draw much more ire if they merely focused on analogous workplace/worklife comfort improvements, for Software Engineers at least, given their famed perks. Hopefully the union targets the Alphabet employees who really do need workplace/worklife improvements, mostly found in the non-full-time ranks.

[0] https://alphabetworkersunion.org/press/releases/2021-01-04-c...

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by azernik » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

lliamander wrote: post #707

thesuitonym wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>tell me what the terms of the contract will be and I'll decide for myself. Nobody can tell you what the contract will be because the contract won't be drawn up until the union exists and has enough members to bargain. What you DO know is the current contract you have. You DO know that you have virtually no say in what is in that contract, "accept it or leave," is not having a say in that contract. You DO know that a…

At least an idea of what they are trying to bargain for would be nice.

They have a website with a platform and priorities at https://alphabetworkersunion.org/power/why/

"We want to wield our power to ensure:

* Our working conditions are inclusive and fair,

* Perpetrators of harassment, abuse, discrimination, and retaliation are held accountable,

* We have the freedom to decline to work on projects that don’t align with our values,

* All workers, regardless of employment status, can enjoy the same benefits."

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by microtherion » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

TigeriusKirk wrote: post #376

microtherion wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple used to have easter eggs in its software, crediting individual engineers. Steve Jobs banned them, saying it would be unfair to give credit to individuals instead of the whole company, would make it easier for competitors to poach key engineers, etc. At the time, Jobs was also running Pixar, which never seemed to have problems in its movies to credit everybody down to the hairstylist of the second unit's caterer…

To my knowledge, Pixar is non-union.

But they are still operating adjacent to a highly unionized industry, so parts of their products may have operated under union rules, and for others, they may have competed for employees that had a choice to work for unionized employers.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by my_usernam3 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

vitus wrote: post #392

The prevailing fixation seems to be on how unionization would help the highly-compensated engineers, when the people who need and would benefit most from unionization are the TVCs, who aren't considered Alphabet employees, don't get benefits, are regularly excluded (from all-hands, mailing lists, even affiliating with Google on LinkedIn). Suppose a barista's phone dies. Employees are not permitted by policy to chip i…

I think thats because this unionization attempt is for the FTE to speak out over social justice causes and not face retaliation. Aka not about compensation.

I do wish there was more focus around the contract employees, in fact I think this petition (or whatever its called where they all sign) is only for FTE.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Post by ddingus » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #640

ddingus wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The better organizers will have a priority discussion. What terms improve things for everyone? How should work be? From there, they build solidarity around those terms. When the vision maps to 80 / 90 percent of labor at that enterprise, the effort to unionize can win.

You're taking it on faith that those with authority in the discussions will be acting altruistically with equitable consideration for all would-be members.

No I am not. Failure to set that expectation easily is one of the reasons for much higher solidarity numbers needed to win these days.

In the US, costs and risks are pretty high. People need more than they did in times past.