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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#721

Post by zepto »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #715
zepto wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing I said is false. Third party stores will not exist equitably on iOS and Android because there don’t exist equitably anywhere else. I said a small group, not just Epic. That group would be made up of the usual suspects - Epic, Amazon, Google, Facebook, various other TenCent properties etc. Nothing about it would make it either developer friendly, nor consumer friendly.

Android is already both more developer friendly and more consumer friendly than iOS despite not having full automatic update support for third party app stores. If that were in place, it would be even better.

This is clearly not true. If it were, developers and consumers would prioritize Android.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#722

Post by mullingitover »

candiddevmike wrote: post #62

Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user. There's two parts to this to me: app stores and the data collected by the devices. Users should have the freedom to install any software on their devices, period. Users should also have the freedom to stop all data collection by these devices. This applies to all electronics--video game consoles, TVs, printers, who knows what else…

> Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user.

I have the choice of buying a completely controllable android device if I want to install mystery apps willy-nilly. I'm not interested in that, and there are millions like me. I want a locked-down device that keeps developers in check.

This situation is much like the browser nightmares of the past, where Firefox users complained that the browser was slow. People didn't really take into account that the slowness wasn't fault of Firefox, but of the zillion janky browser extensions people freely installed. Chrome came along, and people were wowed by how fast it was, not realizing it was 'fast' because they hadn't installed 47 browser extensions yet. Apple doesn't want to be Firefox, and I don't blame them.

I want my phone to be like a Nintendo, I don't really care about the freedom to install any random code I download (even though I really could if I wanted to install something I built locally with XCode). First and foremost I want developers to be terrified of getting their publishing privileges yanked if they step out of line.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#723

Post by zepto »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #717
judge2020 wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if Apple had entertained the original pre-lawsuit request, would epic have fought until Apple allowed app stores other than Epic and Apple existing?

What does it matter? They're fighting for something that benefits everybody (except Apple) now.

There is no evidence that what they are fighting for would benefit anyone other than a small group of already rich companies.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#724

Post by Barrin92 »

ta8964586 wrote: post #508
candiddevmike wrote: post #62

Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user. There's two parts to this to me: app stores and the data collected by the devices. Users should have the freedom to install any software on their devices, period. Users should also have the freedom to stop all data collection by these devices. This applies to all electronics--video game consoles, TVs, printers, who knows what else…

Genuinely curious, how would you give users "the freedom to stop all data collection by these devices" without some kind of walled garden. Is the solution something like flatpack for all apps? but then how do you make sure all apps don't just refuse to work without permission to collect data or manage to collect information without users knowing? You can't force developers to be honest about what their app does witho…

> I can't think of a solution

because you're only thinking of technical solutions. A comprehensive privacy framework that requires explicit user consent to data collection and gives user transparent controls accomplishes just that, without having to resort to user-hostile or complicated tech.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#725

Post by matwood »

zepto wrote: post #682
bogwog wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Almost no stores will be able to compete with Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc, who already have giant reach and network effects, First of all, that is not true at all. And second, even if it were true, it'd be a far better situation for developers than the current status quo.

Having to deal with multiple stores would be strictly worse for developers than the current situation.

And worse for consumers. No way I'm dealing with entering my CC again and again. The current situation is not perfect, but it does have advantages for both consumers and developers.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#726

Post by Razengan »

hnra wrote: post #705
threeseed wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Support for Epic never took root anywhere. Because everyone can see Epic for what they are: a billion dollar company who wants their own monopoly. Do you think Fortnite will be available on competing stores ?

> Do you think Fortnite will be available on competing stores? The play store seems to indicate this to be the case. Epic released Fortnite on both their own store, and the play store no?

What about Steam, and why not?

What if I don’t want to instal Epic’s store but still play Fortnite?

Where is my “user choice”?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#727

Post by ksk »

plandis wrote: post #420
ksk wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything you disagree with here? https://appfairness.org/our-vision/

> No developer should be required to use an app store exclusively, or to use ancillary services of the app store owner, including payment systems, or to accept other supplementary obligations in order to have access to the app store. Apple doesn’t have a monopoly here they don’t even have 50% marketshare. Nobody forces developers to develop apps for Apple devices, that’s a choice that was made. Why should Apples righ…

>I find it hard to see as a win for consumers based on the scummy practices of the companies in this advocacy group. Comparatively consumers are much better with Apples requirements from my perspective.

Its a clear win for users and developers because of competition in stores. Different stores will have different overheads and operating costs and can offer different discounts to both users and developers. Apple's brutal monopoly prevents that.

>So given that there is potential for significant harm AND developers have a choice of platforms to develop for why should Apples rights be taken away?

There is harm being doing today by Apple to users and developers. We need to undo that.

>So if I sell an app that does something like only sells to white people Apple shouldn’t be allowed to step in even though the negative press is likely to harm their brand image?

That went straight over my head, sorry. I didn't understand what your point was..

>Apple should be forced to work on behalf of other companies with no benefit for them?

Apple keeps their own APIs secret, or rather, artificially bans Apps from using them. This is merely leveling the playing field to allow other app stores to operate.

>Is this not true today? If it’s not Apple setting those standards it’s surely some other biased entity right? How is one better than the other?

Multiple app-stores will ensure competition.

>Why? It’s their platform. Developers are free to develop their own phone / OS, right?

I don't want Windows to ban Chrome or Firefox or arbitrarily block people from accessing websites either. "Its their platform" so they get to abuse their position of power is not a winning argument for me anyway. Clearly our views differ on this.

>Apple would surely say developers do not pay an unfair or unreasonable amount. Who sets this standard?

We set a fair income tax through the political process (however flawed) that allows stakeholders to participate. No system is perfect and we can only strive to improve the existing one. Right now, its Apple's dictatorial approach that is setting the rules. I'm glad there is a pushback.

>Why? If your App Store bricks an iPhone, Apple shouldn’t be able to prevent that from being installed on their devices?

That is ludicrous. A madman could use a knife to kill you so lets ban knifes?! If we have to be mature and rational about it, we need to evaluate things in a much more nuanced fashion.

>Transparent is subjective. I don’t see how this won’t result in the same types of TOS that people without legal degrees are not equipped to parse/understand.

Everything is subjective here. Apple's robbing of 30% of sales needs to end.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#728

Post by zepto »

Apocryphon wrote: post #681
zepto wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers can safely ignore the F-Droid store because it represents no significant market share. This will not be true of the stores that Epic, Facebook, and Google, and Amazon et al would start up on iOS.

> As of June 2017, the Google Play store hit 3 million apps by 968,000 developers, trumping the Apple App Store. In comparison, the Amazon App Store only has around 600,000 apps by 75,000 publishers, as of Spring 2016. https://www.businessofapps.com/news/amazon-app-store-vs-goog... Interestingly, there appears to be more revenue made per user on the Amazon store than on Google Play: https://www.mobilemarketer.com/ex/…

I think this confirms my point.

Note that as per Epic’s other lawsuit, the Amazon App Store is working at a severe disadvantage to Google Play.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#729

Post by therealx »

giantrobot wrote: post #616
candiddevmike wrote: post #62

Device freedom is a must. Any device should be completely controllable by the end user. There's two parts to this to me: app stores and the data collected by the devices. Users should have the freedom to install any software on their devices, period. Users should also have the freedom to stop all data collection by these devices. This applies to all electronics--video game consoles, TVs, printers, who knows what else…

You're not going to get open firmware. Cell phones are radio transceivers in the hands of millions of unlicensed users. The only reason any of the cellular infrastructure works is all the devices run tested and certified firmware. For most cellular basebands the PHY is more powerful and capable than the regulations would normally allow. They only get certified for consumer use because the firmware bounds the operatio…

True, but anyone mildly determined can get a two year old device, 0day the baseband, and have full access. I remember old iOS exploits that gave access to the full baseband as well.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#730

Post by systemvoltage »

sneak wrote: post #676
systemvoltage wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your style of thinking cannot be popular on HN, but we all know why this is good for the consumer - in this day and age, businesses will completely rip apart the consumer in every which way. They'll not miss a chance to fuck the consumer's privacy, financial state, psychology, innocence and addiction. HN crowd wants something they can run sudo on. But people here have not got a slighest idea of how to run a device fo…

> Your style of thinking cannot be popular on HN, but we all know why this is good for the consumer - in this day and age, businesses will completely rip apart the consumer in every which way. They'll not miss a chance to fuck the consumer's privacy, financial state, psychology, innocence and addiction. Apple is among the worst offenders here, too. They expressly permit all sorts of embedded spyware in almost every s…

Thanks for providing the source about encrypted backups, that's chilling.

Can you provide sources for other claims in your comments? I want to read up more on what sorts things these apps do.

Apple is by far the best when it comes to privacy relative to the others. Would you trust Microsoft, Google, or literally any other company (even Canonical Ubuntu) more than Apple?

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