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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#721

Post by uncle_j »

daseiner1 wrote: post #716
uncle_j wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there was a young guy dressed in sports gear and appeared to be somewhat of a lout, no matter what the colour of his skin I would cross the road. I didn't say anything about Black men. I said if I saw young men in General that looked like louts I would be wary.

Oh, give me a break please. You explicitly brought up young, shadily-dressed men on the street as a subpoint in the context of talking about black people.

No you are accusing me of racism when I made no comment about race what-so-ever. This "well you are secretly talking about black men" is you inserting your own prejudices and assumptions into something I've never said.

This maybe be an American thing. I am not from the US, I've never been to the US so I don't know. There are plenty of groups of yobs in the UK in poorer areas. Outside of London and the big cities these tend to be white. In my own home town (which is 99% white) there are 4 or 5 problem areas where you don't walk through at night because you get surrounded by youths. It happened to me at least once or twice when I was in my 20s and I only got left alone because one of the guys knew my brother.

I get so bored of this "well you secretly meant something else because I want to label you a bad person".

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#722

Post by csb6 »

eej71 wrote: post #123
csb6 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Structural sexism is not perpetuated by infants. I mean come on. Children wanting to nurse is not the big issue; children grow up, and do not need nursing when they become toddlers. So why are women still expected to be caretakers of toddlers, middle-schoolers, and tweens? Surely, there isn’t a physiological reason. There is clearly something larger going on. In reality, men and women’s roles are arbitrary, and the s…

While its not a universal construct - it is challenging to look at the history of many cultures who arrived at a similar distribution of labor and the behavior of other mammals and not wonder if men and women aren't inherently different in some generalized way that isn't readily alterable. For those of us on the other side of the debate, there is always this vague sense of some people are underestimating the impact o…

Lots of things were/are found in many unrelated human societies, such as slavery, which was found all over the world for thousands of years and still exists in many places/forms today. Something being common isn’t an indication of whether or not it is intrinsic or “the only way”. We only make progress by challenging social structures and trying to improve them. Perhaps these kinds of commonalities exist all over because they are effective at controlling/enforcing oppression and power.

My point isn’t that men and women aren’t at all different, it’s that institutions use the “it’s human nature and it can’t be changed” argument to hide oppressive/coercive practices that are avoidable and able to be removed.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#723

Post by dang »

pnako wrote: post #557
filleduchaos wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you consider a career to be a literally body-destroying poison for men as well or only for women?

The French word for work, 'travail', comes from 'tripalium', a medieval torture instrument. It's bad for everyone, and I definitely think a society where only one parent has to work instead of two is better. A 'career' is something pop singers and top athletes (male or female) have. They even have agents to manage those careers. But most people have a job; they do work, travail, tripalium. The fact that people confus…

I was all set to be cunningham's-lawed into telling you that's wrong about "travail", but holy shit, you're right:

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=travail

Maybe I shouldn't be so surprised, since English still has the word "travails".

"Work" on the other hand means action, doing:

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=work

That's quite a difference: one is something no one wants, and the other is something everyone does.

"Labor" falls on the "travail" side, meaning exertion, pain:

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=labor

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#724

Post by conanbatt »

codingmess wrote: post #703
conanbatt wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strange thing about arguing that its a trade is that you have to consider the trade is fair and consider nothing else.

Not sure what you mean, tbh.

If the birth and childbearing is being compensated by being able to spend time with the child, why give any consideration in any other field (say custody, parental leave, etc) if its already paid for.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#725

Post by conanbatt »

DavidVoid wrote: post #303
detoxdetox wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

>It is high time to recognize that 2 children is still a lot of effort and make room for Mothers to take care of their own children. It's high time that fathers start putting in some more work in that department too. Sweden has 480 days of paid parental leave, and each parent has exclusive right to 90 of those days. Have fathers spend some time raising their kids instead of just letting their wives do it and you'll s…

I remember reading that in a nordic country they had 1 year of parental leave to be shared, and men got 1 month and women 11 months. There goes your gender-equality.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#726

Post by conanbatt »

tlear wrote: post #642
DavidVoid wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think that if a father is just working (and essentially doing what he'd do if he didn't have a child) then that should be considered good parenting because he's providing resources? Might as well call every working man a good parent then even if they barely even interact with their kids. There are very important emotional aspects to parenting that you people who constantly complain about feminism seem to compl…

This is privilege speaking. As a upper middle class it is easy to scale back.. have more time blah blah Now try that if you are under the mean. Good luck. It is absolutely the case that SOMEONE has to pay the bills. If you are making 40-60k and alone you can live pretty ok, now try that with 3 kids. Making so much money you can afford to relax, take time to hangout with kids, take them skiing, buy PC for them, take t…

Poor people also pay taxes, so they would be paying for it themselves!

There are more effective ways to help poor people than special paternity clauses/bonuses etc.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#727

Post by codingmess »

conanbatt wrote: post #724
codingmess wrote: post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean, tbh.

If the birth and childbearing is being compensated by being able to spend time with the child, why give any consideration in any other field (say custody, parental leave, etc) if its already paid for.

Sorry, still not quite sure what you mean (I'm not a native speaker, maybe that's why).

Childbearing is of course not the only cost of having a child. Custody and parental leave just make it a bit less expensive (at least for some).

However, the initial investment is usually mostly by the mother. Other expenses come later. I think you could discuss who has the right to the kid if, say, the mother abandons it after birth and the father lovingly raises it for 10 years. I suppose that is also what happens in custody lawsuits?

I like this comparison, but only because I haven't found a better one yet:

Suppose you dream of sailing, and you start building a sailing boat. You work on it for a year, building the boat with your own hands.

The day the sailing boat is ready, your husband takes it from you, says "thank you, now you may go back to your normal career again", and sails off to unknown lands with your ship, while society applauds his sacrifice for the sake of your career.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#728

Post by codingmess »

nl wrote: post #712
codingmess wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No - what is going on is that feminists point to statistics of dads not staying home, then claim it is because dads "don't step up to help in the home". That's a feminist lie - several, actually. First lie: it is a burden to take care of your kids. Second lie: dads are lazy slobs oppressing the mothers to do all the awful work, while they chill in their comfy careers. It's not even a question of "I can't help you wit…

As someone with kids I can verify it's a huge amount of work taking care of them! It's incredibly hard work, by far the hardest thing I've ever done. If you want to call that a burden then so be it. For you to call that a feminist lie makes it sound more like you are trying to make this an ideological argument rather than anything based on experience. All your arguments are based on some strawman argument if feminism…

It's hard work, but not a burden. People have kids because they like having them. Keeping with the Ferrari analogy, cleaning your Ferrari is also hard work, but nobody would pity you for the "burden" or having to clean your Ferrari.

Not sure if you are aware, but if you don't like them anymore, there are ways to get rid of them. You could send them to a boarding school (or at least to a school where they have to stay at school all day), hire a nanny, or give them up for adoption, for example. If your parents are still alive, you could ask them to take over, too.

As for feminism, the whole discussion only exists because of feminism. Therefore, yes, it is about feminism.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#729

Post by DreamScatter »

xerxex wrote: post #373

Her argument just shows how entrenched sexism runs in our society. Anecdotal evidence/sample size one story: My wife has a doctorate in chemistry and 2 postdocs under her belt, but she had to leave her field purely due to sexism she encountered during her post docs. The PI (her boss) was quite abusive, outright sexist and a horrible racist. My wife wanted to move on to industry jobs but her wouldn't let her leave. So…

Academia is generally abusive, regardless of whether you are male or female.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#730

Post by nl »

codingmess wrote: post #728
nl wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with kids I can verify it's a huge amount of work taking care of them! It's incredibly hard work, by far the hardest thing I've ever done. If you want to call that a burden then so be it. For you to call that a feminist lie makes it sound more like you are trying to make this an ideological argument rather than anything based on experience. All your arguments are based on some strawman argument if feminism…

It's hard work, but not a burden. People have kids because they like having them. Keeping with the Ferrari analogy, cleaning your Ferrari is also hard work, but nobody would pity you for the "burden" or having to clean your Ferrari. Not sure if you are aware, but if you don't like them anymore, there are ways to get rid of them. You could send them to a boarding school (or at least to a school where they have to stay…

As for feminism, the whole discussion only exists because of feminism. Therefore, yes, it is about feminism.

You are presenting an caricature of feminism, and that seems to be all you are able to argue against.

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