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Terminating Service for 8Chan

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Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#721

Post by king_magic »

coldtea wrote: post #720
king_magic wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those always sounded like noble, wise words. And maybe they once were. But in age when white supremacy/fascism/nazism/strongman-leader-ism is rising again, I’m no longer sure I agree with them.

Because Voltaire's age was so peaceful and didn't have those things? (Voltaire didn't said it exactly, it's a later quote. But he said words to the same effect, and it's by itself a good quote).

Voltaire didn’t live in a time of algorithmically influenced news cycles. Things have changed a bit. He might no longer be right.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#722

Post by bluescrn »

ptah wrote: post #579
Lazare wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The freedom to spread cheap hate, fake news and bigotry against minorities? I'm sorry but moderating such offenses isn't a limitation to free speech. For the same reason why, if you start shouting nig or monkey to black people in a shopping mall, the police is likely to intervene and take you away - and I don't think that any sane person would argue that they're violating your freedom of speech. Popper taught us th…

yes, i think this is a serious flaw in the US constitution. other countries are more sensible and reasonable when it comes to dealing with hate speech

There’s a serious flaw in the US constitution, but perhaps it’s the bit about the right to bear arms, not about the right to speak/write words

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#723

Post by nl »

It's funny, these discussions go around and around in circles on HN.

Really, we should all just reference Popper's Paradox of Tolerance[1].

A just, tolerant society should tolerate anything other than intolerance. Yes, this isn't as simple as "freedom of speech", but it makes a lot of sense.

Popper's words argue this as well as anyone:

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#724

Post by Sacho »

arrrg wrote: post #571
sytelus wrote: post #205

This is the same argument cake shops make against taking order from gay people. I do believe that so-called manifesto is mind-numbingly dumb, fact-free and it is dangerous in the sense it will inspire more violence against innocent people. But that precisely what makes it a good test case for asking some fundamental questions. Can commercial businesses with deep reach, pricing power and critical function deny service…

[flagged]

Pedophiles don't make the choice to be pedophiles - would you allow their pedophilia activism? What's the difference?

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#725

Post by Faark »

onli wrote: post #701
toyg wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because someone used your property for offensive purposes, the water company cut off the water supply This actually happens in Europe, typically when authorities decide squatters should not be tolerated. TBH, services like Cloudflare should be free to operate as they please. A publisher is simply not entitled to a CDN. If there is a demand for specific niches, a supply will eventually emerge, like it has for porn.

> TBH, services like Cloudflare should be free to operate as they please. A publisher is simply not entitled to a CDN If a CDN is necessary to support the site being a public platform that's not a given. This whole "A private company should be able to act like it pleases" that Cloudflare mirrors in their news is an ideological standpoint, not an absolute truth. It's certainly possible to see it differently: If a comp…

> If a company becomes a public platform important for the public discourse or for the function of journalism, regulation and laws can limit what a company can do.

Only if there are good arguments for this to be necessary. You didn't mention any. Just being "big" is no reason to get rid of the "free market". Are they abusing their market dominance? Is this a natural monopoly? Are strong network effects in play, as with Facebook? The best argument for a market failure I can think of is high initial investment. Yeah, I'm not convinced gov needs to write rules for Cloudflare specifically.

> With the announcmenet they are causing the political discourse after the massacre to be about free speech

As it should. Simplified, slaughtering = hate guns*. There is no way to get rid of guns in the US any time soon, so most talk about it is a wasted opportunity cost. The hateful and divisive rhetoric, on the other hand, seems to be sharply on the rise, with even the president making it permissible and using it to his one's ends. This seems like a way more promising attempt to stop the probably upcoming civil war.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#726

Post by serf »

king_magic wrote: post #716
qrbLPHiKpiux wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I may disagree with what you say but will defend with you your right to say it.” - Voltaire

Those always sounded like noble, wise words. And maybe they once were. But in age when white supremacy/fascism/nazism/strongman-leader-ism is rising again, I’m no longer sure I agree with them.

> I’m no longer sure I agree with them.

the problem is that the alternative is, basically, a white-list of approved ideas.

Who makes this white-list? That's the issue with wholesale censorship.

A system like that will get gamed as soon as the political winds change one way or another.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#727

Post by gspetr »

king_magic wrote: post #716
qrbLPHiKpiux wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I may disagree with what you say but will defend with you your right to say it.” - Voltaire

Those always sounded like noble, wise words. And maybe they once were. But in age when white supremacy/fascism/nazism/strongman-leader-ism is rising again, I’m no longer sure I agree with them.

Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#729

Post by sokoloff »

onli wrote: post #701
toyg wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because someone used your property for offensive purposes, the water company cut off the water supply This actually happens in Europe, typically when authorities decide squatters should not be tolerated. TBH, services like Cloudflare should be free to operate as they please. A publisher is simply not entitled to a CDN. If there is a demand for specific niches, a supply will eventually emerge, like it has for porn.

> TBH, services like Cloudflare should be free to operate as they please. A publisher is simply not entitled to a CDN If a CDN is necessary to support the site being a public platform that's not a given. This whole "A private company should be able to act like it pleases" that Cloudflare mirrors in their news is an ideological standpoint, not an absolute truth. It's certainly possible to see it differently: If a comp…

It would be far more concerning to me if Cloudflare used this moment to express a business opinion on gun control rather than a freedom of speech/association argument to permit them to cease doing business with a group they revile.

Do I need to know Cloudflare’s opinion on gun control, religion, abortion, or any number of other irrelevant topics? Nope. Do I appreciate that they terminated 8chan? 95% yes and 5% reluctant yes. In conjunction with that, so I want to know their policy stance on freedom of content on their platform? 100% yes.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#730

Post by decoyworker »

FourScore wrote: post #444
Lazare wrote: post #15

On the one hand, I like the idea of a free, open, and distributed internet, where no one company or government has the power to control what is distributed or discussed. As the great John Gilmore said, more aspirationally than accurately even then: "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." On the other hand, we don't live in that world, and I don't know how well it would work in practice if we d…

So you're willing to give unchecked control of online discourse to a private corporation?

It's not unchecked- they are free to move to a different service. Why should Cloudflare be forced to keep all customers no matter what? That infringes on their rights as a private business to run their business as they see fit. There is no "freedom of platform" where your right to a platform is being infringed. You have no right to a platform.
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