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Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

nytimes.com

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Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#721

Post by andosteinmetz »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #637
andosteinmetz wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What New York City do you live in? I have never been offered, nor do I know anybody who's been offered a month's free rent on signing a lease. Places that do this are overcharging and driving up rents. Your comment may just be emphasizing the fact that there are multiple "New Yorks." And I suspect the New York that Amazon HQ2 would benefit would be the New York that pays too much to live in a glass tower and gets off…

What is the point of this comment? It combines some smug self-satisfaction about "Your New York" with your ridiculously insulated anecdata about the first month discount many apartments give. A 5 second Google search shows hundreds of results for 1 month free rent in apartment listings. What exactly are you contributing to the discussion?

That's a fair criticism, and I regret my tone and making the discussion personal. But as a life-long New Yorker, I do feel a personal stake in all this.

I believe OP is right that the month's free rent offered on an apartment is recouped by the landlord: in the form higher rents, which have become a real problem for many people born and raised in the city and which would likely only be exacerbated by Amazon's setting up shop here, especially under the conditions offered by the city.

Over the past 20 years New York has experienced an influx of wealth without commensurate investment in public services. The MTA is dying, urban blight is spreading and many of the new professional class moving here don't seem bothered by it.

Another piece of "anecdata": walking down Bedford Ave. in Williamsburg a few years back, I heard one wealthy newcomer say to another that she couldn't wait for the local pharmacy across the street from the new Duane Reade to close. Maybe this anecdote doesn't have the force of a "real data" but it may help some people on here understand why New Yorkers aren't thrilled by the prospect of a building a big Amazon campus and welcoming them with a handout.

https://harpers.org/archive/2018/07/the-death-of-new-york-ci... Unlike the author of this article, I'm not averse to my city changing, but I'd like to imagine something other than the change we've been seeing...

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#722

Post by r00fus »

ben509 wrote: post #575
KorematsuFred wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A sheriff of a small town told me how they ended up spending thousands of dollars to SWAT team which he thinks he will never use. The reason ? After some school shooting in another end of USA the folks of his county wanted to know how their LEAs plan to defend the local schools. The correct response here was that they do not expect such law probability even and even if it happens there is very little they can actuall…

Honestly, it's a bit like a doctor giving someone a sugar pill.

Except it's a vulnerability to SWATings. Also the cost acquisition and maintenance is non-negligible.

More like it's a sugary pill that gives you diarrhea that also does nothing useful.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#723

Post by JDiculous »

AngryData wrote: post #636
marcell wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you fix the rail system? With money from... taxes... from well paid workers, for example. I think a lot of people get so caught up in hating on tech workers and opposing gentrification they forget where the money comes from.

How long will it take to cover the almost 3 billion dollars they were offering Amazon? That is money that could go into improving mass transit right now AND provide jobs for building and operating it, while benefiting hundreds of thousands of citizens through it's usage.

New York isn't literally giving Amazon $3 billion, it's a tax break. Big difference. It's not like New York is foregoing $3 billion in income from other businesses in order to accommodate this subsidy package.

And like other commenters pointed out, the state still makes money through payroll taxes, sales tax, property tax, etc.

I agree that the politicians should have made it more clear that the additional tax revenue would be used to fix urgent problems like the failing subway, poverty, etc.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#724

Post by Eyes »

jfnixon wrote: post #534
mav3rick wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LeBron's Decision 1 was a lot of money for him. He had the talent to back that up.

And the company that owns vast swaths of cloud computing space doesn't have talent to back it up? Amazon is way more dominant than LeBron in their respective businesses.

This comparison is more absurd than apples to oranges

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#725

Post by smsm42 »

anth_anm wrote: post #672
rhegart wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Majority of the incentives are from Amazon’s taxes. 27B in economic activity for 3B in tax breaks for just 10 years is wayyy better than almost every other corporate deal. Better than Tesla for sure. That 3B will no longer be generated. You want a net 24B or a net 0B? New Yorkers chose 0

I'll choose that 0 over giving away 3 billion every day. I don't care how you try to justify this sort of corruption.

There was no "giving away" anything. There was "not taxing Amazon as harshly as others". It's like I tell you "I want to rent space on your frontyard for my sign" and you say "ok, $100 per day would do nicely" and I say "I need it for the whole month and $3K it too much, maybe $1.5K would do it?" and you say "I am not giving you away fifteen hundred bucks!". Then I say "OK, was nice talking to you" and you got $0 now instead of $1.5K you could have. But you're somehow happy you didn't "give away $1.5K", which you never had.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#726

Post by Pyxl101 »

sammycdubs wrote: post #669
rhegart wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Majority of the incentives are from Amazon’s taxes. 27B in economic activity for 3B in tax breaks for just 10 years is wayyy better than almost every other corporate deal. Better than Tesla for sure. That 3B will no longer be generated. You want a net 24B or a net 0B? New Yorkers chose 0

It's New York City, we don't need to give the largest company in the world a huge discount to do business here. It's not like the economic development of NYC is dependent on Amazon. It's a central hub to so many industries because of its infrastructure, talent, connection to capital markets etc, not because of handing out discounts.

New York City wasn't going to give Amazon a special discount. The company qualified for existing incentive programs that are already available to everyone: the Relocation and Employment Assistance Program, and the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program.

https://www.nycedc.com/program/relocation-and-employment-ass...

https://www.nycedc.com/program/industrial-commercial-abateme...

It doesn't make a lot of sense for a city to offer incentive programs and then complain when companies attempt to use them. The city should make up its political mind about what incentive programs are available, and who qualifies for them, as part of the decision about whether to offer such programs. Programs should then be implemented neutrally, in a way that does not play favorites or pick winners and losers. Many other companies have benefited from these programs - the entire point of these programs is to achieve some kind of policy objective by being used.

The uproar in this case seems more like political brinkmanship, not any kind of sound economic policy designed to benefit the constituents of the city. These incentive programs were presumably passed in the first place to benefit constituents - that's why they're there, to attract additional investment to areas of the city that otherwise would not receive it. ("The Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) provides a refundable business tax credit for commercial and industrial businesses relocating to designated areas of New York City and making capital improvements to their space")

If people in NYC think that these incentive programs are a bad idea, harmful, inappropriate, or whatever else, then they should direct their anger at their political representatives, and cancel those incentive programs - not direct anger at the companies who take up the offer that the city put forward.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#727

Post by l9k »

siruncledrew wrote: post #207
zelias wrote: post #55

If Amazon had just quietly announced plans to expand to LIC without the "HQ2 Search" dog and pony show they almost certainly would still be here. Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Turns out that publicly shaking down cities across the US tends to draw out the opposition. More publicity = more scrutiny = more angry opponents of your business decision

Amazon's spectacle reminds me of Lebron's "The Decision". It's one thing to work out the details and make an announcement, but to purposefully turn it into a show about "What can you do for me?" instead of "Here's what I can do for you" made it not sit well with people. Also, the pull-out letter also basically dumps the blame on state/local officials for not wanting Amazon, despite not all stakeholders being present…

Antoine Griezmann did the same thing last year, finally staying at Atletico de Madrid with a huge new contract

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#728

Post by yyyymmddhhmmss »

pradn wrote: post #437
siruncledrew wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon's spectacle reminds me of Lebron's "The Decision". It's one thing to work out the details and make an announcement, but to purposefully turn it into a show about "What can you do for me?" instead of "Here's what I can do for you" made it not sit well with people. Also, the pull-out letter also basically dumps the blame on state/local officials for not wanting Amazon, despite not all stakeholders being present…

LeBron's show raised like $6 million for various charities, so that's commendable.

With corporate charity arrangements, how “commendable” it is always remains to be seen.

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#729

Post by skh »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #624
skh wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the relentless (Media) attacks of DJT are an indication, there are few "outsiders" who are going to get involved in the future. Consider the possibility that he isn't being attacked. That his actions/statements are being reported on. That what you call an attack is indicative of the nature of the man. When you cause George Will to leave the party then....

George Will? He's part of the status quo that laid down the foundation on which Trump build his successful candidacy. That George Will? The old white blowhard? That failure is not Trump's fault, it's Will's & Co. But people like Will don't have the integrity to stand up and be counted. Instead, they use diversion and misdirection, and sadly people fall for that. Will left because he was embarrassed, embarrassed by hi…

George Will? He's part of the status quo that laid down the foundation on which Trump build his successful candidacy. That George Will? The old white blowhard? That failure is not Trump's fault, it's Will's & Co. But people like Will don't have the integrity to stand up and be counted.

George Will has been a solid conservative for decades and written numerous books lauded by conservatives. Consider the possibility that it was precisely his integrity that caused him to abandon the party. Perhaps it's possible that Trump represents a part of the party that a reasonable person with some sense of moral and intellectual consistency wants nothing to do with. How far right does the party have to go before you will question the state of affairs? Trump called Ted Cruz a liar. He implied Jeb Bush is a wimp. He implied that Ted Cruz's wife is ugly. He implied that Rand Paul is ugly. He said that McCain is a loser because he was a POW. He was a loser for getting captured. Trump agreed that his own daughter is a nice piece of ass. This was on the Howard Stern Show. How far does the man have to go to lose credibility in your eyes?

Re: Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus

#730

Post by steelframe »

SCAQTony wrote: post #208

Hey, remember those Amazon insiders that bought property on the cheap? "...Amazon employees are apparently eager to get a head start on the New York City real estate game. Condo sales in Long Island City are soaring following the announcement that the Queens, New York, [a] neighborhood will host part of Amazon's HQ2, The Wall Street Journal reports. According to The Journal, one brokerage firm sold 150 units in four…

If the sales didn't start until after the public announcement, how do we know that it was Amazon employees who were buying?

Regardless, I suspect Amazon employees would know better than to bank on Amazon following through on a commitment.

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