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Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

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Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#721

Post by coatmatter »

robotrout wrote: post #320
yason wrote: post #297

I am oversimplifying here but: * install device that is designed to listen to speech in the house * the device is connected to internet * the device is capable of contacting other internet peers/services/hosts * the device knows a bit about its owner's internet presence such as contacts * the device is equipped with simple conversational user interface based on fuzzy human speech-command detection These basically bou…

I do not want to set up this feature on my Alexa for precisely this reason and I am finding Amazon to be really aggressive about forcing me to enable this feature and harvest my contact information. The Alexa phone app is almost unusable for me, as it constantly goes into the telecom setup screen whenever I try to do something else in the app. I am forced to exit the app and come back into it, whenever this happens,…

What do you actually use Alexa for?

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#722

Post by coatmatter »

nfoz wrote: post #345
kinsomo wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One reason you might want a server is to have more expressive power than "if someone literally enters the room, turn on the lights". You might want to turn on the lights and run the AC a little before you predict people will arrive, for example. Maybe, but that seems like a lot of work for little gain. You probably don't actually have that much control over the AC in your rooms unless you have zoned heating and a l…

> Maybe, but that seems like a lot of work for little gain. That's how I feel about Alexa.

While I haven't had the urge to get any 'smart speaker', I have a hunch that the current hype* around these devices comes mainly from the novelty of being impressed with voice recognition.

As someone who doesn't have a voice for radio, I much prefer being able to interact through dexterity. Besides, I'm very picky when it comes to which specific track of music is to be played (out of various similarly named pieces of music).

* I don't think take-up is quite as big as the tech world currently makes it out to be. People in my circles don't really have that kind of disposable income and are prioritising other purchases first.

So yeah, Alexa is a lot of extra literal work for little gain.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#723

Post by yurishimo »

gol706 wrote: post #526
evancordell wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would check out https://www.home-assistant.io/ for integrating multiple systems together. I use it on a RasPi to integrate a few disparate systems (Amazon, Nest, RadioRa2) and it works very well. There are modules for most existing systems and it's easy to write your own in python.

I probably should try it. I've been writing my own partly as an excuse to learn React. I've already got a Pi with a touchscreen and a 3d printed enclosure setup to run whatever solution I actually end up using.

I know I’m a little late here, but I would look into MQTT as a transport layer for messages across your different devices. It’s super easy to interface with via python or a host of third party services.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#724

Post by chias »

spurgu wrote: post #645
Mandatum wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cocaine poodle"

Haha nice, I've used "Okay poodle" a lot before.

I like this a lot! It seems to work reliably for me, and is a lot easier to say than "ok google". Thanks :)

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#725

Post by toss1 »

amzn_engineer1 wrote: post #697
toss1 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is where "software" diverges from "engineering". It's not a conspiracy, it's negligence. Bugs happen in architecture, aircraft, etc. too. the difference is that the actual engineers are paid to have a precautionary approach -- and spend significant resources -- to actively prevent bugs from making it into the final product. Amazon and your team has built a great product (I have one and make moderate use of i…

I agree with you and my response to another comment elaborates: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17154679 I'm all for doing away with the "it's gotta ship yesterday" mentality, what your thoughts are on how developers can help stop it?

First, the Tech/Dev managers need to stand up. Instead of saying 'Yes' to every feature request, they need to say 'No', or 'Later'. I've seen too many who just feel that their job is to implement everything as fast as possible, and as close to approximating the sales/mktg/product guy's latest half-baked idea as fast as possible.

This is not easy, especially as the CEO is still typically above the CTO, and can overrule. I had it happen to me, when we were ahead on a scalable version of the product, but they didn't like the timeline. The mgt decision cost almost a year of messed-up myopic development schedule just to roll out apparent features sooner, but ignored the likelihood and eventuality of bugs. Afterwards, when we got back to the scalable highly modular version, we started taking biz from competitors who couldn't scale. I'd say that my mistake was to only give the broader consequences, and not spend time to be able to enumerate in detail the consequences of non-scalable quick program would be. Of course you cannot predict exactly what bugs will happen, but I could probably have done a better job of drawing the scenarios (not sure it would have made a difference, but it might have).

I'd also say that we need to create specific structures and plans to study and quantify risks, as is done in real engineering like aerospace, architecture, etc. Classify those risks into a range of categories, from small bugs to existential for your customers or project.

Different steps need to be taken for each class, and significant part of the planning needs to go into de-risking the project.

I'm in physical vs software development now of carbon fiber type technologies, and I notice that my military customer who are building very cutting-edge stuff often talk of 'de-risking' the project, whereas I don't hear this much from other customers. Seems like an important distinction to take on board.

--- From a user perspective, I noticed after looking at the issue on our own Echo yesterday: the UI is a totally greased slide to hide choice for the user and slide them right into giving permissions for contact list. It seems that effort was made to hide the actual features and functions that will result from giving permission, and obscure the 'Skip' option. So it would be easy to not even notice that your device had these new possibilities. Obviously, I'd recommend taking more time to sell the features and let us make an informed choice. Then even if things go wrong, you'll enjoy some benefit of the doubt in the market and press.

(edit: add parenthetical)

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#726

Post by lsaferite »

sly010 wrote: post #688
hdkrgr wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another convention seems to be 'Alexo' when you want to talk about Alexa but not to Alexa.

We just call her "you know who" (a.k.a. the thing who's name we are too afraid to mention)

Why not just call her Lord Voldemort then?

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#727

Post by tambourine_man »

vorpalhex wrote: post #677
tambourine_man wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not though, please reread the comment above. Water brought and stored in buckets from an outdoor communal well would not be nearly as clean or as plentiful. There's a reason we have indoor plumbing and convenience is just one of them. And I can't believe I have to explain this here.

You seem to be intentionally missing the point. Change my earlier examples to remote controls for your TV if you prefer. Convenience does, absolutely, have strong value and can be meaningful improvement to one's life. Generalized voice control is a major and meaningful convenience - even if it's currently early and might have some problems - because it drastically changes how we can interact with our environments. Su…

> Change my earlier examples to remote controls for your TV if you prefer.

My disagreement with you is precisely because you consider them equally interchangeable.

To me, putting those two on the same level is actually offensive.

If data on the increased life expectancy isn’t persuasive enough, I suggest you speak with someone with no access to basic sanitation. Ask them what they think of this comparison.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#728

Post by Bartweiss »

JangoSteve wrote: post #431
ryanlol wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how is an Echo different from your smartphone? It feels like you've failed to quantify that. It's much easier to turn off voice-command activation on the Echo than your smartphone. The Echo is not constantly recording. > I assume that Google isn't constantly recording everything in the vicinity of all Android phones AHAHAHAHAHAHA, see for example: https://www.google.com/maps/timeline The vast majority of Android u…

> So how is an Echo different from your smartphone? It feels like you've failed to quantify that. > It's much easier to turn off voice-command activation on the Echo than your smartphone. The Echo is not constantly recording. The difference is that a smartphone has the ability to constantly listen, but an Echo's primary use-case is to constantly listen. So if you're going to turn off voice-command activation on an Ec…

Thanks, this is summarizes my position really nicely.

The most fundamental point is that a smartphone with voice-control disabled is still a useful tool, but an Echo with voice-control disabled is an LED rolling pin.

And beyond that, yes to the rest - I don't want to add an attack channel, I trust my knowledge of phones more than that of an always-on black box, and I object to voice control as a more open-ended threat than location tracking.

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#729

Post by Bartweiss »

ryanlol wrote: post #397
Bartweiss wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually a pretty interesting question about threat models. A lot of "it can listen" fears are inconsistent with "I carry a smartphone", but I do think there's a meaningful distinction. My expectation isn't secrecy , but it is privacy . I carry a smartphone, but I keep voice-command activation turned off. I'm sure it could be activated remotely, but I expect that would require a targeted effort. I assume that…

So how is an Echo different from your smartphone? It feels like you've failed to quantify that. It's much easier to turn off voice-command activation on the Echo than your smartphone. The Echo is not constantly recording. > I assume that Google isn't constantly recording everything in the vicinity of all Android phones AHAHAHAHAHAHA, see for example: https://www.google.com/maps/timeline The vast majority of Android u…

JangoSteve's responses cover most of my thoughts - I don't think remotely enabling recording is harder on a phone than an Echo, I just think the base state of the devices is different.

But as for "AHAHAHAHAHAHA, see for example: https://www.google.com/maps/timeline The vast majority of Android users I've met unknowingly had this enabled"?

I do have Timeline turned off. I know most people don't, but I'm not sure why "many people make this mistake" is supposed to be a rebuttal to "I'm more privacy conscious than many people".

Re: Amazon device recorded private conversation, sent it out to random contact

#730

Post by amzn_engineer1 »

toss1 wrote: post #725
amzn_engineer1 wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you and my response to another comment elaborates: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17154679 I'm all for doing away with the "it's gotta ship yesterday" mentality, what your thoughts are on how developers can help stop it?

First, the Tech/Dev managers need to stand up. Instead of saying 'Yes' to every feature request, they need to say 'No', or 'Later'. I've seen too many who just feel that their job is to implement everything as fast as possible, and as close to approximating the sales/mktg/product guy's latest half-baked idea as fast as possible. This is not easy, especially as the CEO is still typically above the CTO, and can overrul…

> First, the Tech/Dev managers need to stand up. Instead of saying 'Yes' to every feature request, they need to say 'No', or 'Later'.

Yes, I see this a lot too. I think software managers have more incentive to get new features deployed. I don't think this is a good way to measure their performance as a manager because of the consequences we've already mentioned.

I would also like to see more concepts from physical development implemented in software. At times feels like the wild west out here and too often we ignore the lessons from similar experiences.

Thank you for that input btw.

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