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Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

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Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#721
post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if I don't believe in trying to control people at such a low level? What if I think people should be allowed to be as ranty as they want without having to worry about being "disincentivized"?

Facebook and YouTube already do stuff like this: "too many people are just having fun clicking like on funny images instead of typing long comments, so let's increase the newsfeed and recommendation penetration of posts and videos with more comments... oh, shit, but now we are promoting flame wars as the best way to get more comments is to troll people".

[deleted]

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah - if reddit had a sustainable model in place of a VC model, it would be a different story. The best example for reddit is a national park, imo. As for rules - Rules are not the first line of your defense. The first line of defense is the price of admission into your community. I have seen a large number of forums now, and frankly most of the heavy lifting is done by the type of people and the topic. For example…

I disagree with your first line of defense, but I do that on more general discussion. You are on solid ground otherwise. :D Norms, established members, and the concepts of owning our end of a discussion, as well as weighing what others say can do wonders for general fuckery.

What's your argument against the first Line of Defense/barrier to participation?

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#723
post #699
post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow... instead of debating the pertinent points raised, you resort to name-calling.

Let's not pretend you're not attempting to gaslight me. I _returned_ name calling, as my interlocutor decided the easiest way to dismiss my claim was to frame it as chicken little proclaiming that the sky is falling. Then I debated his points. Lets break it down point for point: - lopmotr framed my comments as a conspiracy theory. I retorted that there is obvious evidence all over reddit that supports my claims. - lo…

As someone who is sympathetic to your argument, I disagree with your tactics. 'lopomotr' suggested that you might be falling prey to the same psychology that you are seeing in others. While it's probably impossible to be completely polite when doing this, I don't think he was trying to be rude. As you might guess, self-identified "conspiracy theorists" don't necessarily consider "conspiracy theory" to be purely an insult.

You, on the other hand, compromised your otherwise reasonable argument by flippantly claiming that approximately half the US voting public is "willfully ignorant". This is gratuitous "name calling", and el_cid was right to call your attention to this. I didn't vote for Trump, but have intelligent friends and relatives who did. Regardless of whether their choice was wrong, insults like this are counter productive to changing anyone's mind. So stop it.

Personally, I think you are right about much of the behavior you see on the right, but seem to be missing (or at least not mentioning) the equivalent online psychological tricks that mislead the left. As your penance, here's a story from someone one the right detailing how he sees some of the matters you are refering to: https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/the-politicization-of-the-fbi.... I thought it was an interesting read that I haven't seen in the mainstream press.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your first line of defense, but I do that on more general discussion. You are on solid ground otherwise. :D Norms, established members, and the concepts of owning our end of a discussion, as well as weighing what others say can do wonders for general fuckery.

What's your argument against the first Line of Defense/barrier to participation?

First, and again, you are on solid ground with specific discussion topic focused communities.

Assuming a more general discussion, and or one where growth and or participation is desired, having strong norms in place immunizes the community against nefarious players.

When someone new shows up, the idea is to give them some rope. Let them self identify, and self select too.

When most of the community gets this, then the idea of raising both their cost and reducing their reward both pack a big punch.

You aren't wrong. What you put here does work, but it has a lot of friction, which may be undesirable.

See, a nefarious actor has a low risk and generally low cost to entry.

Why enter?

They also have a high reward potential, and it's that favorable ratio that consistently attracts them. Above someone mentions $10 as a barrier to entry.

$10 is cheap ass compared to the fun one can have! No joke. In my study of this, I've met many who would pay that easily.

If that friction, however high it needs to be, is desirable, fine. Raise the cost enough and the outcome will be a low noise, but also low churn, low growth community, generally speaking. A very compelling, but specific topic can alter that too.

Otherwise, the community, it's founders, moderators, others of status, influence, however that all is structured, only has control over the reward part, and they can have some control over the cost too.

See, the topic of discussion here is more general chatter. We have more focused things well on the way to being acceptable signal to noise. What we do t have is general community, say politics, or other broad topics in that same state.

It's that which I have focused on for a very long time. Personal interest.

Norms, and various discussion devices can deny nefarious actors joy, and can frankly make them regret their intent. At the same time, consistent calls to join the community, based on their own arguments framed in positive ways can work wonders.

One discussion norm is weighting of what one gets. When a clown calls you an ass, it's as laughable as it could be a basis for righteous indignation.

The vast majority of the time, righteous indignation is the response. "How dare you!" From there, the reward gets pretty good for the clown.

What happens when the response is laughable? One actually laughs, or does something basic like rate the shit?

I can tell you the reward on all that is much lower. When they realize that is a norm? Low joy, high pain potential, particularly when they figure out they really are seen as a clown, or ass.

All these things, and I'm leaving a lot out, as it would be a short book to model, get at reward.

Ask yourself, what does a reward look like?

Say it's attention, as another example.

Return that with endearment, and most often they will leave, or join and become a member with some genuine basis. They leave because the moment they are familiar, their behavior normalized, understood, it's boring. No fun. No joy.

They join, because they find out there really is a common basis and they didn't realize it. Often, an ask to join will actually work.

A few will just spew forth, and so raise their cost makes great sense.

Simple things, like say not allowing them 4 letter words, carry a very high, often funny cost that can always be removed on good behavior, expression of and demonstration of better intent.

The best is the community can see that, act accordingly and it's all public and largely transparent. Often, some members will step in to help. Often that works, amazingly, and when the basic norms behind it all are in place and solid.

Many other simple, subtle, always recoverable things can be used in tandem with strong community norms to inhibit noise, while promoting signal.

The best part about this kind of approach is it's well distributed. Model it to a few, they apply, model for a few more, and soon most active participants are largely immune.

An "infection" won't spread, and where it does, the cost tools are used to marginalize impact.

A lot really depends on community intent and whether friction to entry is desirable, or not.

The bigger problems cited here are most painful on general discussion, and most discussion is actually general.

Having more specifics out there is good, but not ultimately a solution for the general need and value humans find when they interact.

This is tribal. People seek tribes. A good tribe stands strong because it's members understand how to do that and why it matters.

An investment in those things can be very effective, and that was my point to make. The things you mention can also do that.

You aren't wrong. There are just cases where other ways may well deliver better results, or be better aligned to the community needs and goals.

Say those goals aren't to grow old and decline.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My view increasingly isn't that there are things, but interactions or behaviours. A thing isn't, but is what it does or how it behaves. The "belief in things" is itself a cognitive simplification we make, probably for the sake of efficiency. To use a programming analogy, toxicity as a concept is a function of at least three arguments - toxic(what, to-what, context) - but we attach it as a label to the first argumen…

What's your meaning of arity here? "Things" with some bounded shape or form (or other properties) may be related to perceptual apparatus. We see, or hear or smell or taste or feel, etc., the boundaries, emissions, or other perceptible manifestations of objects or phenomena. If you will, those are their interfaces. As in other domains, an interface may reveal, or conceal, some more complex back-end, inner working, or…

Arity, as in number of arguments to function.

As in, beauty(who to-whom &optional context) confused as beauty(who).

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#726
post #667
post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that while it's totally okay to do it, I'd find it better if people used it less for simply disagreeing. In my experience, the resulting discussion ends up being of poorer quality because of it (and less exposure due to being pushed down and hidden once it hits a certain threshold)

Such evidence as I'm aware of points in the opposite direction: HN without downvotes would be like a body without white blood cells. Disease would quickly kill it. The problem with your argument is that it doesn't reckon with just how lousy bad internet comments are, or how many of them there are, or how completely they take over if allowed to. To a first approximation, bad internet comments are the entire problem of…

I'm not arguing that we should never downvote, if someone is writing garbage, I will happily downvote them. But maybe people are a bit too quick to downvote when they disagree...

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your first line of defense, but I do that on more general discussion. You are on solid ground otherwise. :D Norms, established members, and the concepts of owning our end of a discussion, as well as weighing what others say can do wonders for general fuckery.

What's your argument against the first Line of Defense/barrier to participation?

By the way, it's entirely appropriate and desirable for anyone to speak, given a broad or general audience purpose or topic.

Avoiding those doesn't get us answers to hard questions. It does simply push the problems out of scope.

In some contexts, better understanding one another does a whole lot of good.

That is also a focus of mine personally.

My comments on should be taken with that idea as context.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Poisoning a conversation is a thing. And if you've participated in online discussions I don't see how you can honestly say it doesn't exist. "Poisioning a conversation" is a bad metaphor that conflates two different things which do exist, but need to be dealt with in two different ways: 1. Baiting: trying to say something horrible to anger people for their own entertainment. The proper response to this is simply to…

It's not a bad metaphor. If your community is ignoring trolls instead of banning them, it's effectively sending the message that the trolls are very welcome. I've never observed that a no-moderation community is free of trolls, and ignoring trolls often results in them just taking over because they just start talking to each other and everyone else leaves. These things are caused poison because even a small amount ca…

> If your community is ignoring trolls instead of banning them, it's effectively sending the message that the trolls are very welcome.

I have never seen it play out that way in practice.

> I've never observed that a no-moderation community is free of trolls

I've never observed community with moderation and no trolls. You will not ever eliminate them completely, so better approach seems to be ignore them and just ban outright spam.

And I did observe almost unmoderated community that had trolls, nobody cared about them, and everything was fine.

> very large amount of people simply do not enjoy ...

I think you are doing a lot of projection here. Maybe people agree with you, but considering how broken are your arguments I would not take your sweeping generalizations seriously.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#729
post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you share the "correct" viewpoint, but unpopular views have to be exceptionally polite to avoid biased moderation Where HN has been falling short (lately, in my observation) is where discussions about the ethics of certain business models get lost via the "buried" option or killed off completely. You cannot come to HN to discuss the potentially-negative ecological or economical impact of a YC company. The voting…

> "You cannot come to HN to discuss the potentially-negative ecological or economical impact of a YC company." People say negative things on HN about YC companies all the time. We moderate HN less, not more, when YC or a YC-funded startup is at issue. That doesn't mean we don't moderate it at all—that would leave too much of a loophole—but we do moderate it less. This is literally the first principle that we tell eve…

Thanks for the reply.

What I meant, is that one cannot start a discussion of such things without being willing to lose lots of points and karma. Observations that AirBnB might be doing more harm than good to cities having "housing crisis" issues, and the fact that Uber and Lyft are actually harming public transportation rider numbers and putting more automobiles on the roads (creating congestion).

Two issues I've seen brought up here that get downvoted into oblivion. Why risk that? It's far easier for people to jump on the "attack the poster" bandwagon... as they have done to me in this thread.

Granted, I've been reading HN for over 11 years now, and the site is not the same as it used to be. A lot of interesting posters have left. Probably I need to lower my expectations for what to see when I come here.

Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet

#730
post #699
post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow... instead of debating the pertinent points raised, you resort to name-calling.

Let's not pretend you're not attempting to gaslight me. I _returned_ name calling, as my interlocutor decided the easiest way to dismiss my claim was to frame it as chicken little proclaiming that the sky is falling. Then I debated his points. Lets break it down point for point: - lopmotr framed my comments as a conspiracy theory. I retorted that there is obvious evidence all over reddit that supports my claims. - lo…

"Let's not pretend you're not attempting to gaslight me." "you can easily spot a culture of victimhood in others"

I think you should focus on continuing to build your case on reddit and then you should definitely return here in a few years once its ironclad!

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