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Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

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Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#721

Post by Houshalter »

salvar wrote: post #673
illuminati1911 wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

Would you say the same about a takedown of an ISIS website?

Most ISIS content is already illegal for things like inciting violence. If the Daily Stormer is breaking the law by inciting violence, then it should be dealt with the same way. There is an existing legal process and it doesn't require the discretion of Cloudflare's CEO.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#722

Post by tchalla »

jmnicolas wrote: post #649
imbur wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Daily stormer, pol, and breitbart are all free to find another web host/CDN or start their own. There is no slippery slope with one business refusing to do business with another one. The business does not need to be accountable to anyone, because they have no requirement to host the daily stormer in the first place.

So a baker could refuse to make a cake for homosexuals then ?

False equivalence. Your sexual orientation is not a choice. Your political orientation is.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#723

Post by anc84 »

salvar wrote: post #673
illuminati1911 wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

Would you say the same about a takedown of an ISIS website?

Would you argue the same for the takedown of a marihuana promoting enthusiast website?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#724

Post by belorn »

Akujin wrote: post #625
illuminati1911 wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last sentence is the main reason why the world is so fucked up today. "Unless you agree with my radical leftist agenda you are a nazi/racist/ "-mentality and the complete unreasonability of the left is the reason why normal people are fed up with all this crap and are voting for Trump, Brexit etc. No matter how evil some group is (may they be pedophiles, satan worshippers, nazis, whatever...) silencing them and a…

The first sentence is the main reason we are so fucked. There's literally nothing radical or leftist in what I said. Nazism is literally responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths world wide. Fact. You know how I know you're actually a shill? > And don't even start with the car-thing. An individual psycho does not compare to organized widely accepted violence. Whataboutism in literally the next paragraph: > What…

We have come to the point where comments in here is accusing an other HN commenter of being a shill and doing Whataboutism. Maybe we should take a step back and focus on what, if anything, the disagreement is about?

How would you formulate a general law which forbids only neo-nazi organizations and neo-nazi demonstrations? The first thing that comes to my mind is a law against organizations that write that they intend to use violence, but then you just end up with organizations that don't explicitly write that down anywhere but still practice it. If you applied it more flexible, like for example that any organization which members ever express an intention of violence, you would very fast find that doing a test run on history would catch a much large number of organizations than intended.

You could define it as "anything classified as a terrorist group by the state", but again many groups has been classified as such in the past, the state has occasionally change their mind, and animal right activists is an famous example that the FBI classified as "serious domestic terrorist threat". That leaves the system that Germany currently have, and leaves the details to the legal system to figure out what is nazi and what isn't.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#725

Post by fjh »

Xylakant wrote: post #701
fennecfoxen wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a problem with this, because in effect it is saying that if you want to be in business, you have to check your principles at the entrance. Well, welcome to the club! Other noteable groups objecting to their principles being regulated by a government office include Masterpiece Cakeshop of Lakewood, CO, and Memories Pizza of Walker, IN. (For the moment, disregard the likes of Hobby Lobby and Little Sisters of…

You're missing out on option 4: People can't discriminate on properties that the person they are doing business with can't pick or change (gender, sexual orientation, color of skin, hair, size of nose ...) but can discriminate on properties that the person in question did choose or could change (voicing the desire to kill or suppress large parts of the population, affiliation with nazis or just being an idiot in gene…

> People can't discriminate on properties that the person they are doing business with can't pick or change [...] but can discriminate on properties that the person in question did choose or could change

Religious beliefs seem to fall squarely in the latter category (at least to the extent that political views do). Are you really comfortable with people discriminating on that basis?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#726

Post by anc84 »

astrange wrote: post #650
Consultant32452 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you operate on public infrastructure, like being granted public right of ways to lay fiber, I think you lose the right to discriminate. This feels good because Nazis are assholes but it sets a very dangerous precedent. This is why the ACLU has a long history of defending Nazis and their ilk. Because one day it will be you on the other side. We should all discriminate against Nazis by denouncing them, ignoring them…

By this argument Gmail shouldn’t be allowed to run spam filters.

Apples and oranges.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#727

Post by genon »

tshaddox wrote: post #600
genon wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think that businesses shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against skateboarders, or people who refuse to wear shirts and shoes? I don't believe that businesses should be allowed to discriminate against anyone who is behaving in a lawful manner. Is that belief what you're calling a "weird personal ideology"? > Do you have an similar argument for why Nazis shouldn't be fired, or why we shouldn't consider whet…

> I don't believe that businesses should be allowed to discriminate against anyone who is behaving in a lawful manner. This principle doesn't seem very robust. Can a bar refuse entry to children? Can a cinema kick someone out for talking during a movie? Can a dance club have a dress code?

> Can a bar refuse entry to children?

If it's legal for children to enter a bar, I don't see why a bar should be able to refuse entry to children.

> Can a cinema kick someone out for talking during a movie?

If they're causing a problem for other people in the cinema and refuse to stop, sure. A right to be access a product or service shouldn't override other people's right to get what they paid for.

So for "lawful manner" in my above post: "lawful manner, or manner that doesn't negatively impact other customers".

> Can a dance club have a dress code?

If a club wants to only allow a specific type of member then it should be a private club.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#728

Post by tr352 »

snovv_crash wrote: post #678
tr352 wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A -> B does not imply !B -> !A A -> B does imply !B -> !A. The error in reasoning here seems to be that attitude towards a website is assumed to be a binary "like/not like" variable, while in reality one can also neither like nor dislike something.

No it doesn't. Just because you tell me you don't like to get shot doesn't mean you are ok with being stabbed.

Yes it does. In fact, in classical logic, A->B is equivalent to !B->!A. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#729

Post by kristopolous »

Houshalter wrote: post #715
camillomiller wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to your own ideas is not an absolute. It's a pact you have to respect and it involves respecting other people rights first. Neonazi and white supremacist are betraying this social pact by furthering the idea of a superior race and the extermination of the different, that's why they're walking a really thin line when it comes to their right to First Amendment protection. You just resorted to what I call "the…

All political ideologues think their opposition wants to take away their freedoms. If you make the rule that people who want to remove freedoms don't get them, you create a tool for any party in power to silence their opponents. There is no prerequisite like that in the first amendment. Go read the thing. Monarchism was a serious threat to the founders. Monarchists don't believe in many freedoms including freedom of…

> Neonazis are spoiled rich kids that get everything they want

They aren't. They are what was once the middle class, which has been chipped away at for the past 40+ years.

There's systems of misdirection that have been set up to convince them they are coming up short not because of how the rules are constructed by those in power, but because of a dis-empowered scapegoat.

This redirection trick away from the powerful to the unfamiliar outsider is literally (and literarily) from antiquity. It's part of an ancient bagful of common political slight of hand tricks used to fool people.

It doesn't work on everyone, but those it does work on...well we've seen what that looks like yet again.

So just as we wouldn't allow people to go around and seriously promote say smoking in front of infants for the health of the baby, we should think twice about allowing dangerous political nonsense to be spread and entertained as if it's true - especially ideas with a history of inciting mass murder.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#730

Post by pjc50 »

seikilos wrote: post #636
Akujin wrote: post #573

We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…

> Nazis are no different. Be careful of this. There are very few actual national socialists in the United States, and they certainly aren't all part of a single organisation like Al Qaeda. Even among them the majority are probably against genocide since they all deny the holocaust. What you say does however apply to The Daily Stormer. So I agree that they're a threat and should have been taken down years ago.

Holocaust denial is a pro-genocide ideology. To deny the holocaust of the past is part of denying violence in the present day. It also implies that Jews are liars - it's a very strong piece of anti-semitism.
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