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UK votes to leave EU

bbc.co.uk

721–730 of 1001 posts

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#721

I'm hearing a lot of people comment that this will cause a huge macroeconomic deficit worldwide, and I'm going to briefly explain why I believe the Pound Sterling's 9% devaluation is purely speculative. The UK simply didn't buy the EU's story about the Euro, and now they want a fully independent monetary policy. I'm not sure how much they have studied such possibility, but I bet that taking this to a democratic level…

> now they want a fully independent monetary policy

In what way is it more independent now? It was independent before.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#722
post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

One can be for free movement, free trade, peace and 'growing together' without being Pro-EU.

The EU is not a abstract entity that only lives of ideas. Its a concrete implementation of these ideas (and many others). This implementation I judge to be deficient. The issues are to many to list here, but I just wanted to state the principe.

Europe can achieve most of the things you want without the EU. Switzerland has many of those things with the EU states. You can easily have all these contracts as bilateral contracts that everybody signs. Then you can do the joining and leaving independently, creating much better incentives for both the people who create the contracts as for the participants in the contract.

Their are already tons of things like that, and their could be more. Look at ESA for example.

> This is not always easy, and it means, that the richer parts have to give to the poorer, but that is just basic humanity.

You totally falsely imply that the richer part "HAVE TO" to give the poorer parts money to achieve these goals. That is totally false. Only with a currency their is a real issue and that is solvable even if you want a common currency without massive redistribution.

What you are doing is deceptive, you are making a operational argument for a issue that relates to moral. If we choice this kind of redistribution, we should do it based on MORAL properties and not operational issues.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#723
post #198

I think this should be a wake up call for those of us who are American. Populist movements that rely heavily on anger, fear, and anti-immigration rhetoric can still be effective in western democracies even if a large majority of experts think it shouldn't and won't happen. This is the first time I have legitimately thought we might end up with a Trump presidency.

My thoughts as well - it's surprising (well, maybe not) to see how effective these populist movements are these days whether it's France (Front National), Germany (AfD), Britain (UKIP), Czech, Poland, etc. To me it seems that Switzerland is the only country where its population can be trusted with plebiscitary measures, referendums and other forms of rather direct democracy.

It's not that surprising. Recent developments (like globalisation) have been really bad for the working class, and a growing level in inequality and rising housing prices and what not means that populist movements and their 'simple' answers to complex problems are becoming more attractive.

And the media too. By attacking people for their views, they basically gave these populist movements ammunition and caused their supporters (and much of the public) to see a divide between an elite and the working man.

Things will probably get far worse in the future because of all this...

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#724

> What culture do Germans, Greeks, Latvians, Bulgarians, Fins, and Spaniards share? The one that used to be called the Roman Empire, then Christendom, and is now called Western Civilisation. It is also arguably the greatest achievement of the human species.

Umm, Scandinavians were never a part of it, the fact that Christianity has 3 major splits and the history of it proves how divided they were/are. And that's not even counting the bordering influences of Muslims like Ottomans/Moors. Also there's the ex-communist countries for a more recent cultural split.

> 3 major splits

Just wanted to check, were they:

Rome / Constantinople?

Henry the 8th can divorce / not divorce?

Martin Luther says the church is corrupt / not corrupt?

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#725
post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

> A very sad day for everyone in Europe. I don't know, I'm pretty glad myself. > The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. Only there is not much "growing together". Besides the bureaucracy there were certain large countries (and alliances) pissing all over smaller ones, in things from trade agreements to fiscal policies and other d…

[deleted]

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#726
post #198

I think this should be a wake up call for those of us who are American. Populist movements that rely heavily on anger, fear, and anti-immigration rhetoric can still be effective in western democracies even if a large majority of experts think it shouldn't and won't happen. This is the first time I have legitimately thought we might end up with a Trump presidency.

My thoughts as well - it's surprising (well, maybe not) to see how effective these populist movements are these days whether it's France (Front National), Germany (AfD), Britain (UKIP), Czech, Poland, etc. To me it seems that Switzerland is the only country where its population can be trusted with plebiscitary measures, referendums and other forms of rather direct democracy.

Why did you only list right wing populist movements? Plenty of extreme left wing movements share the burden for being in this mess we are right now here in EU.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#727
post #271

So, devil's advocate here: Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing? I feel like most educated people seem to think this is terrible (and the markets seem to agree), but to me, the European union seems like an anti-democratic institution that doesn't really provide much value. I mean, don't me wrong, removing trade barriers is probably good. But won't the UK just be able to pretty quickly renegotiate basical…

There are many ways to look at it. One way is that the old non-unified Europe used to fight a lot, and the smaller states could be preyed upon. The unified one doesn't have these issues. Therefore you could see the EU as a Good Thing (in fact they won a Nobel Peace Prize for this). Therefore anything in the opposite direction is bad. Of course, things are not that simple. In general, I think that society is slowly mo…

That is my greatest fear for the far future. That Europe starts on a path that will lead to wars within a few decade.

Right now the European economic powerhouses are strong enough to thouroughly destroy the continent (winners and loosers alike) and probably a good deal of the worldwide economy.

Whatever happens that fear must not become a reality.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#728

Of course. Civilisation is built with wars and by killing those who don't share the values of the majority. Why? Because if you don't do it, somebody else will do it to you. As simple as that. Pacifists are nuts.

@bovermyer:

I don't believe it is the ONLY way, but history has repeatedly proven that humans find it to be the most efficient way (and therefore, preferred).

Like you, I'd be far happier if the humans with power would actively seek out alternative paths. However, for a significant minority of people, the old adages, might makes right and history is written by the victors are the way that they -- and the rest of us, by association -- progress.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#729
post #722
post #468

A very sad day for everyone in Europe. The EU is not only about trade regulations, but about a continent who had a not very peaceful history finally growing together. The freedom of movement for European citizens was not only "convenient" but in fact an important civil right. When you live or have a business in one state of the US, you are bound to local regulations of course, but being part of the US granted you a l…

One can be for free movement, free trade, peace and 'growing together' without being Pro-EU. The EU is not a abstract entity that only lives of ideas. Its a concrete implementation of these ideas (and many others). This implementation I judge to be deficient. The issues are to many to list here, but I just wanted to state the principe. Europe can achieve most of the things you want without the EU. Switzerland has man…

Switzerland and Norway (where I'm from) has the worst of it. They're essentially member states without any voting privileges. We pay a large sum of money each year, and we implement a most of their laws, without any representation in the union proper.

Re: UK votes to leave EU

#730

So apparently the majority can be convinced to do something silly; who would have thought that happening in a modern, civilized, western world, the connected world, the flat earth! We underestimate the power of idiots in large numbers.

The Daily Mail has a lot of readers.
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