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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you get bipartisan support for the FairTax? Redesigning the tax structure to favour millionaires ( massive net beneficiaries because their US consumption expenditure is usually a tiny fraction of their capital gains tax and/or income tax bills) over the middle classes (no matter how high the stipend is someone has to pay for the millionaires' tax cut) isn't exactly a popular proposal even on the right That…

By bipartisan support, I mean that if you want to get a basic income to appeal to people on the right you can appeal to existing branding. FairTax is just a basic income with a smaller stipend. Brand it that way. When you co-brand it with the ability to gut a lot of existing federal programs so that they can be reformed without inducing panic that will also garner support. Consumption tax paired with a BI would signi…

> A FairTax + Basic Income hybrid solution could solve a vast majority of hotly debated issues in this country.

Completely aside from the other response, this point is just...wrong. The vast majority of hotly debated issues in this country are not hotly debated because people share a concern but are divided on the best way to address it, such that there is some policy solution that exists which could "solve" the issue. They are hotly debated because people disagree on the first principles of what goals we should seek, not the mechanics of how to address them.

As well as the obvious culture-war issues where this is the case, this is true of much of the immigration debate, many economic debates (where fundamentally clashing ideas of what constitutes "fairness" that should be sought exist), and so on.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"if you want to get a basic income to appeal to people on the right you" Basic income is a conservative proposal (now gaining support among us liberals). My trog relatives are pimping the idea to me, a screaming pinko socialist hippie. The conservation appeal, rationalization of BI is fairness. It lifts the floor for everyone, doesn't reward cheating, doesn't thwart personal initiative, etc. Being easier to admin is…

> Basic income is a conservative proposal Uh, what? In general conservatives consider basic income as welfare/wealth redistribution and hate the very notion of it. Just because some of your conservative relatives like it doesn't make it a conservative thing, it's very much a liberal policy, not a conservative one.

The Conservative Case for a Guaranteed Basic Income

http://theatln.tc/1yydmC9

"The idea isn’t new. As Frum notes, Friederich Hayek endorsed it. In 1962, the libertarian economist Milton Friedman advocated a minimum guaranteed income via a “negative income tax.” In 1967, Martin Luther King Jr. said, “The solution to poverty is to abolish it directly by a now widely discussed measure: the guaranteed income.” Richard Nixon unsuccessfully tried to pass a version of Friedman’s plan a few years later, and his Democratic opponent in the 1972 presidential election, George McGovern, also suggested a guaranteed annual income."

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicare and UBI would have to be separate programs, just like Social Security and Medicare are today. Poor old people living off of Social Security don't pay their medical bills out-of-pocket, they have Medicare to pay for them. In a system with UBI, we'd really need to have universal healthcare ("Medicare for all"). Someone making only the basic income isn't going to have any money for sky-high Obamacare premiums,…

If one is keeping the largest entitlement program of them all, the originally quoted $700 a month is a bit pie in the sky number.

Check out these pie charts to see what money get's spent for each different entitlement programs [1].

It seems like we currently have 2 buckets:

- living money for people who, for whatever reason, have no source of income

- publicly funded medical insurance

It doesn't seem totally unreasonable to classify medical expenses separately from routine living expenses.

The amount of spending in the routine-living-expenses bucket is enough to pay about $350 per month to each of the country's 320M residents.

I think a good proposal is to instate that $350 universal half basic income, replacing social security and unemployment insurance, and then reduce the minimum wage to $0. Even with the rise of a robotic workforce, just about anyone should be able to find work that will pay the remaining 350 if they're allowed to work for little enough.

[1] https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bud...

Edit / Afterthought: No one currently receiving social security or unemployment will support this proposal because they are all receiving way more than that. More than 700/month, and certainly more than they need to survive.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#724
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many potential innovators and inventors are currently slaving away at menial jobs instead of pursuing their passions? The idea that innovation is driven purely by investment is an oversimplification.

Innovation is not driven by humans devoting time and effort to figuring out how to do things better? What do you think innovation is driven by?

Yes, but "humans devoting time and effort" is not the same thing as "rich people investing money".

Certainly the latter can enable the former, but the point made above is that Basic Income can do that as well.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#725
post #101
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the dirty jobs? In the long run, any menial task is supposed to be automated away completely. In short term, what you described already happened in area like Post-doc and game indu…

I don't think plumbing or even waste collection is going to be seriously automated any time soon. Can you imagine what kind of autonomous robot would it take to be able to do regular plumbing work, in cramped spaces, with low visibility, requiring relatively significant physical efforts? The software side of it can definitely be solved (though not easy at all). The hardware side would require significant breakthrough…

I'd imagine the way plumbing might eventually be automated is by new buildings being designed with that in mind.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are you insane? can you see any way a trained neurosurgeon will want to pitch in sweeping the streets instead of using that time to do his highly specialized job and make enough money for it to hire two people to do the sweeping for him? this is absurd! take your totalitarian socialist society and get off my lawn.

Actually, I see it every day in Japan. Elderly people, many of whom had distinguished careers, are up early in the morning to clean the streets——and believe me, this happens everywhere in Japan because there is no litter, no dead leaves, nothing. And you will see the same almost everywhere in Japan. I met a retired Toyota engineer who was an expert in the hydrogen fuel-cell technology that is now in the Toyota Mirai.…

I do wonder if the job-for-life culture in Japan helps with this. Perhaps, rather than people being lazy because they can get away with it, not being terrified of losing your job means they can actually appreciate it, and learn to take pride in their work.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one is keeping the largest entitlement program of them all, the originally quoted $700 a month is a bit pie in the sky number.

Check out these pie charts to see what money get's spent for each different entitlement programs [1]. It seems like we currently have 2 buckets: - living money for people who, for whatever reason, have no source of income - publicly funded medical insurance It doesn't seem totally unreasonable to classify medical expenses separately from routine living expenses. The amount of spending in the routine-living-expenses b…

I think you're going to have a hard time eliminating Social Security; the voters won't stand for it. They paid into it, so it seems unfair for them to not get paid back out of it.

What would work, I think, might be a phase-out: for anyone who's getting less in SS payments than the UBI, just replace their SS with UBI. For everyone making more, they don't get a UBI, they just keep drawing SS. (Or, you could say they get UBI plus the difference between SS and UBI.) Then eliminate the SS portion of the FICA tax and stop everyone from paying into it going forward. Then there'll be some math involved in figuring out how much people who partially paid into it get, but the end effect is that SS will cost less and less money until finally everyone's aged out (to the point where the amount they'd draw is less than UBI so we can just cancel SS altogether). It'll cost a bit more in the short term to do it this way, but it's more fair to people who paid into the SS system and it won't get the AARP voting against you.

>Edit / Afterthought: No one currently receiving social security or unemployment will support this proposal because they are all receiving way more than that. More than 700/month, and certainly more than they need to survive.

Again, you'll have to phase it out. Unemployment is an insurance program that people have paid into, just like SS, so of course they expect it to be there if they need it. And it may (or may not, depends on the person and their income) pay more than they need to survive, but if they have a lot of expenses like a big mortgage then that's irrelevant. They've been forced to live in a society where having a job is basically required for survival unless you get on the dole (which prevents you from working, so it's a trap), so unemployment is something the society has created to mitigate risk.

But like SS, it could be phased out (and the taxation from that eliminated). It could probably be replaced with privately-run unemployment insurance though, but it wouldn't be as necessary with UBI.

But your $700/month sounds low to me. I know it's supposed to be a bare minimum, but even that seems too little to me to live on with today's rent prices. I do think the government has a responsibility to do something about that; rents have been driven up far too much by Wall Street, foreign investors, speculation, etc. UBI needs to be enough for someone to live on with roommates (and not more than 1 per bedroom at market rates), in an average cost-of-living area, plus reasonable grocery store bills and a bit extra to cover transportation costs. If it isn't enough for that, it won't work, and it needs to be jacked up until it is. If that means instituting a big tax on Wall Street, then so be it, since they're largely responsible for the cost of living being what it is.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Poster is crazy to think liberals will EVER support a hugely regressive tax scheme. I just want to make one glib comment here about liberals and regressive taxes. The Northeast is generally thought of as the most liberal part of America (aside from coastal California maybe). So why is it that I've seen far more toll roads and bridges there than in any "red state"? I think some liberals make some good points about re…

> The Northeast is generally thought of as the most liberal part of America (aside from coastal California maybe). So why is it that I've seen far more toll roads and bridges there than in any "red state"? Because the Northeast was also the most heavily developed area of the country before the Interstate Highway System came about with a funding system that made non-toll roads the norm for new limited-access highways…

Ok, but that was well over a half century ago. The liberals have had more than enough time to eliminate these horribly regressive tolls which only hurt working class people, so why haven't they? Why are we still paying ridiculously-high tolls on bridges that are falling apart because they're so old?
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