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Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

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Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#711

Post by jabelk »

VexXtreme wrote: post #699
nostrademons wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I'm male and I'll confess that if this debate had happened a year ago I would've been firmly on your side, arguing that the onus is on the offendee not to be offended. I think that's what's changed for me is the recognition that we're all imperfect, we're human, and sometimes we'll offend people by accident but that doesn't excuse us from trying to change things for the better once we realize we've offended someo…

> Nobody's asking you to give up your identity. But the thing is - is being able to use the word "bro" such a core part of your identity that avoiding it means giving up your identity? Could you just avoid it as a favor to the people out there who feel bad when they hear it? I would avoid it if it was a slur that belittles other people. So no. If you choose to be offended by a word that young men in North America men…

No one is asking anyone to stop using the word bro. It is about context. As in, being mindful about using the word bro when both men and women are involved in a field where women are actively discouraged from participating in the first place.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#712

Post by ElComradio »

jabelk wrote: post #670
[deleted] wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Bro is exclusionary to women because it is a word for a man or boy. So associating guys (and exclusively guys) with the name bro in this way is a small sign to women that they don't belong. I am sure this seems inconsequential to you, and taken by itself, it is. But as a woman, seeing literally (first definition) dozens of these signs every single day on everything related to technology, it adds up. You, personally,…

Good. Stay home. Higher salaries for everyone else.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#713

Post by nostrademons »

VexXtreme wrote: post #699
nostrademons wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, I'm male and I'll confess that if this debate had happened a year ago I would've been firmly on your side, arguing that the onus is on the offendee not to be offended. I think that's what's changed for me is the recognition that we're all imperfect, we're human, and sometimes we'll offend people by accident but that doesn't excuse us from trying to change things for the better once we realize we've offended someo…

> Nobody's asking you to give up your identity. But the thing is - is being able to use the word "bro" such a core part of your identity that avoiding it means giving up your identity? Could you just avoid it as a favor to the people out there who feel bad when they hear it? I would avoid it if it was a slur that belittles other people. So no. If you choose to be offended by a word that young men in North America men…

Not everything has to fit into a giant unified philosophical framework. It's okay to avoid things simply because they make people unhappy. It's also okay not to have a single arbiter of "right" and "wrong" and just to think in pragmatic terms of "will my words attract the type of people I want to attract, or repel people who I might otherwise want to work with?"

Anyway, I'm not offended. I can see why some other people would be. My purpose with this comment thread is just to explain why and how my opinion has shifted over the past year, and possibly provide a different perspective. What you or any bystander chooses to do with that information is up to you.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#714

Post by choicesmade »

Funny timing, I published a similar projects just a few weeks ago!

https://github.com/rprieto/tldr

It doesn't have all the "bro" features, but has a few extra ones too:

- less offensive name :) - syntax highlighting of input parameters - pages are stored on Github (pull request friendly) - but no way to upload/vote on suggestions for now

Happy to hear any suggestions!

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#715

Post by aragot »

jabelk wrote: post #660
VexXtreme wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "this makes me feel excluded" I personally find it EXTREMELY offensive that you assume women have such delicate sensibilities that they wouldn't find this funny or simply see it as a joke. What do you think they are children or mentally incapable of processing wordplay? In this context, "bro" is an obvious pun on "man", what more needs to be said about this? I don't know a single woman who would feel excluded by th…

Me. Right here. I am a woman and while I can obviously recognize that it is a joke, seeing these "jokes" everywhere is literally the worst part of my day. Reading tech news, browsing this site, and on every other technology related site, 10+ times every day I am inundated with these hilarious "jokes" implicitly suggesting that this community, this interest, is for a specific group of people that I am not, and will ne…

As read in an earlier HN post, being a programmer is all about having been socially excluded from evry circle. At 7 yo, excluded from football. At 8 from the local bike boys. At 16 from any group at high school. At student age because I'm a nerd. At 29 because a woman stepped ahead for the management job I hoped for. Do I look unhappy? I still have the best job someone could hope for. And tolerant friends.

Part of the happy programmer's life is, being socially excluded and building a potentially successful life for above social considerations.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#716

Post by IanCal »

Steuard wrote: post #324
overgard wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, lets throw away our sense of humor and wordplay because there are theoretically people that might be offended (maybe, kindof. You know. In theory.). (N.B. the people that seem to be offended so far are offended on other peoples behalf..) Isn't it way more offensive to assume that women are such dainty delicate creatures that like, they won't get the joke?

It's not about offending people. It's never about offending people. Plenty of people could have delightfully off-color senses of humor, love playing Cards Against Humanity, and still find this name highly problematic. It's actually about the signals that we send by using language closely associated with groups or attitudes that have long histories of excluding women or others from our culture and community. And just…

> And just to throw an anecdote or two into the mix, I have at least two female friends in tech fitting that exact description who very explicitly avoid Hacker News for these reasons.

I'm a guy and I'm getting bloody tired of it. There was a blog post submitted here that had an imaginary conversation between a boss and developer. The explanatory text referred to the developer as "she". Cue people complaining about forced use of "she" being ridiculous and how they couldn't figure out if the author was trying to be "edgy".

Personally "bropages" just sounds childish, like if it was called 31337_h4x><or_pages.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#717

Post by Crake »

jabelk wrote: post #670
[deleted] wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Bro is exclusionary to women because it is a word for a man or boy. So associating guys (and exclusively guys) with the name bro in this way is a small sign to women that they don't belong. I am sure this seems inconsequential to you, and taken by itself, it is. But as a woman, seeing literally (first definition) dozens of these signs every single day on everything related to technology, it adds up. You, personally,…

Feminists told me that their movement fights for equality for everyone, despite the fem- in their name. Am I to understand that this is no longer the case? All these feminists keep telling me different things. Talking to a feminist about gender equality is like talking to a christian about marriage equality. They all think they have the divine truth, but divine truth never seems able to agree with itself.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#718

Post by VexXtreme »

jabelk wrote: post #709
VexXtreme wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I DO find offensive is you marginalizing gender issues by comparing them to your experience vacationing in Asia. This comment pisses me off. Living in a foreign country and being marginalized is completely different from being a woman in the tech field in a first world western democracy. I get reminded of the fact that I'm different literally every time I leave my apartment and deal with another human being, w…

The fact that you're being discriminated against and keep saying that "it's just human nature" and you "don't mind" doesn't mean that other people can't campaign against discrimination. Unless you are actively supporting it? Is your argument that we should have more discrimination, or just that we should turn a blind eye? PS - this sort of thing is ingrained in everything technology related. Not just in HN articles a…

> doesn't mean that other people can't campaign against discrimination.

Of course not, I never said that. I don't support discrimination in any way. I love different people and all the diversity living in such a society entails. I love living in such a vastly different world and interacting with different people on daily basis, even if it sometimes causes misunderstandings to happen. I am just asking everyone to check their emotional baggage at the door and act like mature well adjusted individuals and stop pretending that well meaning cultural references/jokes/memes are the same thing as discrimination/racism/sexism etc. There IS a difference. Let's stop acting intentionally obtuse and conflating these things.

> Is your argument that we should have more discrimination, or just that we should turn a blind eye?

You are attacking a strawman. I neither said that we should have discrimination nor that we should turn a blind eye to it. I hate discrimination with a passion. But I am equally against people who think they can fight discrimination by forcing everyone to hide any signs of cultural identity. Do you realize that those things kill diversity worse than any discrimination? Do you have any idea how harmful it is for diversity, creativity and the society as a whole when everyone starts acting the same in fear of being labeled a bigot/racist/sexist? Blatant discrimination and your way of fighting discrimination have exactly the same effect of suffocating diversity - they just happen to be placed on the opposite sides of the spectrum.

Anyway, I'm done having a discussion here because no matter how reasonable I am trying to be here, you are still sticking to your extremist attitudes and failing to see my point. Good luck.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#719

Post by Crake »

ElComradio wrote: post #712
jabelk wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bro is exclusionary to women because it is a word for a man or boy. So associating guys (and exclusively guys) with the name bro in this way is a small sign to women that they don't belong. I am sure this seems inconsequential to you, and taken by itself, it is. But as a woman, seeing literally (first definition) dozens of these signs every single day on everything related to technology, it adds up. You, personally,…

Good. Stay home. Higher salaries for everyone else.

Including the women who aren't crazy over sensitive outrage promoters.

Shocker, there are women in tech who don't shit their pants every time they see the word "bro." I think the feminists will intentionally never manage to notice this, though.

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