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The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

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Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#711

Post by pino83 »

kraig911 wrote: post #395
Balgair wrote: post #207

I like to hang out on fertility twitter. It's a strange place. Since the fertility problem is worldwide, you get a lot of ideologies mixing about. There's hardcore CCP folks, free market Mormons, radical Imams, universalist preachers, the whole lot of them. They're all trying to share ideas and jumping on the latest research findings from reputable and crackpot sources. They're all looking for the recipe to get peopl…

It's just hard now. Before I had kids I had a network of friends and had a great social life. Now it's just me and my wife. If I want more friends I'll have to have more kids I guess? I have 4 now. One (my first) is severely autistic. Financially the cost? I pay about 6,000 a month in daycare. 2k a month in healthcare expenses. Then community wise. Every time I've gone to take them to the movies, or to a restaurant o…

> It's just hard now. Before I had kids I had a network of friends and had a great social life. Now it's just me and my wife. If I want more friends I'll have to have more kids I guess? I have 4 now. One (my first) is severely autistic.

Maybe this disappointment is at least a bidirectional thing?! For me it's quite hard to find somebody in my contact list who has children today AND did not turn into a mostly pointless contact.

There's often the expectation that you're super interested and excited about their children. But even if you'd try. You'll never get something back. Not because they turned into bad persons. But because there are just no spare resources for it (e.g. in terms of calendar slots) on their side anymore.

Do I have to be infinitely sympathetic with them? Or is there some limit at which I am allowed to say: This friendship just doesn't give me anything anymore.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#712

Post by giardini »

After a brief look at this discussion I am surprised that little reference is made of the evolutionary aspects of having children. Posts tend to center on "It's all about me!" rather than "it's all about the genes!"

Atomic theory and evolutionary theory would be the two conceptual frameworks that I would do most to teach to people: the first to understand the world and the second to understand behavior. I believe we have failed, as a society, to teach the second (and possibly the first).

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#713

Post by xyzelement »

tayo42 wrote: post #629
xyzelement wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a dad of 3 I have huge respect for your 4 and I doubt there is much I can offer you in terms of information but I think I would have more complaints similar to yours had my wife not been a lot wiser and more proactive than me, so I'll share. First is where you live. I would have picked based on access to nature and cost, she made us pick based on where other families live and proximity to family. In my town everyo…

Do you live in the US?

I am in a suburb that's closest to NYC without being a part of the city.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#714

Post by echelon »

worik wrote: post #636
echelon wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that being a parent is harder - it's actually easier (excluding the post-WWII American boom years which were a fluke). It's that the floor of being single has risen to stratospheric highs. Being single used to be: boring (no internet, tv, constant dopamine drip. Having kids was an escape from mundane boredom.) Being single used to be: lonely (now we have dating and hookup apps, online games, tons of in-perso…

> post-WWII American boom years which were a fluke No fluke. A deliberate policy

We can't return to a place where America is the only manufacturing country in the world, where every other country is in ruins and rebuilding and taking loans from America. That was a very weird set of circumstances that gave America unprecedented tailwinds that no other country has ever had.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#715

Post by malcolmgreaves »

jpadkins wrote: post #535
bittercynic wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a man who's never wanted kids, and is now getting to an age where it probably wouldn't be a good idea, those weren't really the big factors for me. Having a kid is just an unfathomably large commitment. If you bring a kid into the world, I believe you're responsible for creating the conditions where that kid can grow into a healthy, well adjusted adult, and that's seemed like an increasingly impossible commitment…

It's not that hard. Sorry you missed out on a wonderful thing. You are not responsible for the world or its conditions. You just have to support the kid and be a good role model, that is 95% of the job.

You're definitely responsible for the environment you bring a kid into. It doesn't matter what is going on in the world. You're the parent and ultimately you're responsible for the environment where you raise your children. You're responsible for having the right resources to raise them trauma-free. Did you...not realize this when you made kids?

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#716

Post by Johanx64 »

program_whiz wrote: post #703
miroljub wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main issue is that you don't need children anymore. Previously, your children were: - your workforce - your retirement plan - your elderly care plan - your security - your private army Now, when all these things don't apply anymore, or you have better replacements, you simply don't need children. They are just an unnecessary cost. You can live a happier and better life without that with children. Maybe when child…

Just want to chime in, for anyone else reading this: I can say I used to think this way. Having kids is 100% the best thing, would never trade them for anything, including all of the above and a 5x raise and early retirement. Absolutely nothing about single life is even close to the value you feel having a child. Of course this is "anecdata" but so is "the single life is so awesome" given most of the stats about ment…

> once you get bored of mindless work/consumption cycle, go ahead and get to the good part!

The good part is spawning another entity which has to slog through mindless work and consumption cycle, (experience the misery of aging, wither and die) - just so you can feel good about yourself?

You acknowledge the stats about mental health and loneliness and how prevalent that is, and yet you will roll a dice on (other persons behalf) with glee - with high odds of subjecting your child to it.

Natural selection truly is a sight to behold, where peoples brains get disabled and they lose their ability to think when it comes to procreation, because those that do think get selected out of the gene pool.

It truly is beautiful.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#717

Post by nancyminusone »

anonymars wrote: post #66
mothballed wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Social Security system relies on creating a debt of unborn children to older people based on those older people having already paid now dead people, so keeping it solvent requires more meat for the tax machine. A pyramid inversion means the old keep voting for OPM from the young, using their numbers to crush them, meanwhile there are fewer and fewer young to actually pay it. Eventually creating instability, coupl…

Mentioning Social Security and government implies there is some other form of retirement that doesn't inherently depend on younger people still working, doesn't it? I mean, who else going to grow the food and sweep the streets?

As an aside, I haven't seen a street being swept in my area in nearly 25 years.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#718

Post by pino83 »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #421
kraig911 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just hard now. Before I had kids I had a network of friends and had a great social life. Now it's just me and my wife. If I want more friends I'll have to have more kids I guess? I have 4 now. One (my first) is severely autistic. Financially the cost? I pay about 6,000 a month in daycare. 2k a month in healthcare expenses. Then community wise. Every time I've gone to take them to the movies, or to a restaurant o…

You're not alone, Kraig911. It's very hard to be a parent in modern society. My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way. They say they do, but they rely on us to take the initiative and make social things happen. After dozens of rejections or silence from dozens of them, it's rejection fatigue with the friends…

> You're not alone, Kraig911. It's very hard to be a parent in modern society. My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way.

Similar to what I wrote in the other reply: How far went _your_ initiative to stay in actual contact with them, in a way it's not a boring duty call, but something _actually_ nice?

If I have friends with children, sure I'm also interested in them. But if it turns out that these friends have no desire to spend time with _me_ anymore - without any kids involved - and they mostly expect from me that I constantly want to see the kids and "help in any way", well, where do I profit from that friendship?? It often gets quite asymmetrical and boring.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#719

Post by malcolmgreaves »

snikeris wrote: post #699
mullingitover wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is nothing in this world that brings people more joy than their families and their children. Nothing. Counterpoint: Yes, you're giving the standard apologetic we all hear from parents. However, plain and simple, objectively it's typically the most stressful thing you will do in your entire life. It's so bad the US Surgeon General had to put out an entire advisory paper about it[1]: > 41% of parents say that m…

It's a tale as old as life itself. Some organisms succeed in coping with the environment they find themselves in. The genes and culture of these organisms gets passed on to the next generation.

Except not, since these stats are about organisms that are not succeeding in the environment and yet have reproduced.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#720

Post by tuna74 »

JPKab wrote: post #312
eptcyka wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free childcare makes it so much easier. Can’t imagine leaving 80% of my salary at the daycare, but some in the UK do that.

My wife worked in several daycares in her early 20s, including an extremely expensive "Bright Horizons" location in a very affluent area. Even premium daycares provide inferior care to infants and young toddlers versus parental/family care. The economics of a business being in charge of your child demand this. Something that shocked her was at this super expensive daycare she worked at, the infants were basically giv…

Interesting that you only seem to think that mothers should take care of their kids.
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