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AI generated music barred from Bandcamp

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Re: AI generated music barred from Bandcamp

#711

Post by mapontosevenths »

troupo wrote: post #630
mapontosevenths wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of half a dozen ways to detect AI music in it's current form, btu I'm not sure anyone has actually bothered implementing such a system. Is anyone here aware of one? I might give it a go if not.

> I can think of half a dozen ways to detect AI music in it's current form Can you give a few examples? For example, how to detect that the song I linked is AI compared to say, anything Taylor Swift produces, or to any overly produced pop song or an electronic beat.

My first instincts offhand were:

* N-gram analysis of lyrics. Even good LLM's still exhibit some weird pattern's when analyzed at the n-gram level.

* Entropy - Something like KL divergence maybe? There are a lot of ways to calculate entropy that can be informative. I would expect human music to display higher entropy.

* Plain old FFT. I suspect you'll find weird statistical anomalies.

* Fancy waveform analysis tricks. AI's tend to do it in "chunks" I would expect the waveforms to have steeper/higher impulses and strange gaps. This probably explains why they still sound "off" to hifi fans.

* SNR analysis - Maybe a repeat of one of the above, but worth expanding on. The actual information density of the channel will be different because diffusion is basically compression.

* Subsampling and comparing to a known library. It's likely that you can identify substantial chunks that are sampled from other sources without modification - Harder because you need a library. Basically just Shazam.

* Consistency checks. Are all of the same note/instrument pairs actually generated by the same instrument throughout, or subtly different. Most humans won't notice, but it's probably easy to detect that it drifts (if it does).

That's just offhand though. I would need to experiment to see which if any actually work. I'm sure there are lots more ways.

Re: AI generated music barred from Bandcamp

#712

Post by johnnyanmac »

BrokrnAlgorithm wrote: post #79

I'm a musician, but am also pretty amused by this anti ai wave. There was recently a post referencing aphex twin and old school idm and electronic music stuff and i can't help bein reminded how every new tech kit got always demonized until some group of artists came along and made it there own. Even if its just creative prompting, or perhaps custom trained models, someday someone will come along and make a genuine ar…

Well that's the issue. We're not seeing "artists" coming along and applying it to their years/decades of creative knowledge. We're seeing the equivalent of some cushy heir to a fortune come in with a drill and say "I can outdo these teams of diggers! We don't need diggers anymore!"

And on the surface the drill is better. But this heir is assuming that all diggers do is diplace dirt. Not thinking about where to dig, how to dig safely,, what to dig for, and where brute force is needed vs a subtle touch (because even in 2025, miners keep shovels with them). That's all going out the window for "hey I made a hole, mission accomplished!".

Instead of working with diggers to enhace their mining, they want to pretend they can dig themselves. That's why no one in the creative space is confident in this.

Re: AI generated music barred from Bandcamp

#713

Post by johnnyanmac »

tensor wrote: post #340
vharuck wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And you create music without ever having heard music before? Or are you also extracting other artist’s work and using it as inspiration for what you do? Personally, I don't buy this "AI models are learning just like we do." It's an appeal to ignorance. Just because we don't fully understand how a human brain learns, one can't claim it's the same as a statistical model of ordered tokens. But even if it were true, I'm…

> If this right is allowed to all humans, there is a chance one learn from and outperform me. That would suck for me, This is a rather sad take. If someone learned from my art or music and did something new and more popular, I would be happy! I had influence, I mattered. That new more popular work takes nothing away from my previous work. In fact, when I do science I'm doing it explicitly for this reason, to build on…

You didn't finish the sentence:

>That would suck for me, but I can accept it because it came from a universal human right I also enjoy.

Re: AI generated music barred from Bandcamp

#714

Post by johnnyanmac »

pixl97 wrote: post #318
vharuck wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And you create music without ever having heard music before? Or are you also extracting other artist’s work and using it as inspiration for what you do? Personally, I don't buy this "AI models are learning just like we do." It's an appeal to ignorance. Just because we don't fully understand how a human brain learns, one can't claim it's the same as a statistical model of ordered tokens. But even if it were true, I'm…

>The law and social conventions are for humans. I don't know about that. America shows us that laws and social conventions are for corporations. Humans are just entities to extract profit from.

We don't talk about it much in these AI topics, but there's definitely the elephant in the room of the whole "low trust society" aspects that make a lot of actions automatically scrutinous from corporations, especially American.

But I've seen the discussion here on that's and we're pretty far away from being able to have a good discussion on that. Let along bridging the two topics together.

Re: AI generated music barred from Bandcamp

#715

Post by 1zael »

Anamon wrote: post #632
1zael wrote: post #353

This is dumb. The solution for all music platforms should be to add a label for AI-generated tracks or artists so users clearly can disambiguate. It's frivolous to prevent someone from enjoying a piece of art whether AI or human. Furthermore, the line is blurred between what constitutes human vs AI development of music. Most producers today use pre-packaged samples, sequencers, and tracks to generate derivatives. Sur…

I suspect the problem is scale. AI slop can be churned out at an unprecedented rate, and Bandcamp is not a big company, but they'd have to host and serve all of that stuff nonetheless.

Agreed that is a valid problem, though it's solvable and IMO worth solving.

Re: AI generated music barred from Bandcamp

#716

Post by stevenalowe »

Real musicians play real instruments, not synthesizers

Real musicians play real instruments, not samples

Real musicians play real instruments, not AI-generated slop

All of the above is bullshit y’all

Real musicians play with anything they want.

Bandcamp’s first policy will become an enforcement nightmare in the short term and irrelevant the long term.

I’m still waiting for someone to create something really good with AI - meaningful, impactful, emotionally gripping - not just novelties. Same problem as AI text slop - by the nature of its training, it regresses to the mean

Also: how much time/effort/money one spends creating art is unrelated to quality. Spending 40 hours recording and producing a mediocre song does not make it “better” than a mediocre song generated in a few seconds by AI or any other tool

Re: AI generated music barred from Bandcamp

#717

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #655
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holly Herndon's music is original and creative. Unlike most LLM-generated pastiche text, picture or music. And since it's from 2019, it's not quite the same thing. I like it, unlike the current wave of unwanted LLM slop. It's original. Of course if 1000 people were doing the same with minimal creative effort and passing it off as something else, that would ruin it.

Gotcha thanks!

For instance Frontier (1) or Eternal (2)

I get Kate Bush and Dead Can Dance vibes, filtered through a mechanical chorus with a bit of glitched breakbeats.

It's empathically not the forgettable, bland averaged pastiches that LLMS emit on lazy command. Even if it's not your favourite, I'm sure that it's something.

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvNqNgHAEys

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4sROgbaeOs

Re: AI generated music barred from Bandcamp

#718

Post by Krasnol »

dragandj wrote: post #605
Krasnol wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "good" music?

Perhaps music that at least the author would listen to? To this day I haven't heard an AI song that made me wish I press the rewind/play to listen it again. Granted, most human-generated songs are crap, too, but at least they are not crap to their authors.

But aren't many crap songs popular too?

Doesn't seem like a good way to measure a "good song".

Re: AI generated music barred from Bandcamp

#719

Post by Gander5739 »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #573
notahacker wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably a good analogy too. Pixar's creative process is quite different from drawing it frame by frame and at least some aspects of it will use have used some sort of generative process, but it's incredibly involved and conscious in a way that typing "video of cute cartoon cat, Pixar style" into a prompt isn't. Same applies to Bandcamp not having any issues with people making music in a DAW

Yeah, but we also haven't seen what making actually decent music or movies or whatever with AI will look like. Maybe it simply won't be possible and there will not be a market for it. But if it is possible it's probably going to be a lot more involved than just '"video of cute cartoon cat, Pixar style" into a prompt'.

You might be interested in this article: https://www.economist.com/culture/2023/05/24/art-made-by-art...

Though relatively old in the AI world (2023), it's still quite interesting.

In case you can't access the article, the prompt used is:

> 35mm, 1990s action film still, close-up of a bearded man browsing for bottles inside a liquor store. WATCH OUT BEHIND YOU!!! (background action occurs)…a white benz truck crashes through a store window, exploding into the background…broken glass flies everywhere, flaming debris sparkles light the neon night, 90s CGI, gritty realism

Re: AI generated music barred from Bandcamp

#720

Post by nomel »

Ritewut wrote: post #698
nomel wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not surprising that some people are mindless consumers, but it's not useful to assume the majority is, especially of paying customers, and competition exists.

You're assuming it's not useful because it doesn't bode well for your argument. What makes you think assuming the majority aren't mindless consumers is useful?

Again, if people enjoyed watching things they didn't like TikTok would not be eating everyone's lunch.
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