"Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order • Hacker News Board

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#711

Post by paulryanrogers » Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 1:24 AM UTC

jtc331 wrote: post #694

svnt wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naive interpretations like this one, of bad faith actions is how we get there. This same assumption of good faith was wholly present in peoples' responses to project 2025 prior to the election. They are not acting in good faith. Try restating the problem: Why is this EO being issued? What problem, other than judicial review, does it solve for the executive branch? EDIT: For those who do not think this contributes any…

> What problem, other than judicial review, does it solve for the executive branch? It’s fairly obvious on its face the concern of the EO is not judicial review but about agencies that nominally are past of the branch the President heads determining interpretations of law contrary to what the head of the executive desires. And, it does genuinely seem weird to have an executive branch where the head of that branch doe…

> ...heads determining interpretations of law contrary to what the head of the executive desires.

Is the head of the executive an expert in all things? And capable of communicating those expert desires with perfect clarity?

Why have courts if the executive head can sort out all legal nuance themselves?

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#712

Post by georgemcbay » Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 1:25 AM UTC

doctorpangloss wrote: post #300

calibas wrote: post #217

If you're wondering why the President can essentially write his own laws when that's not how our system is supposed to work, it's because the President gets extra powers whenever we're in a state of national emergency. We've been in a state of national emergency since 1979.

Yeah. Dude. I don’t like the outcome, but he has “extra” powers because Republicans won a lot of elections and are a majority in all three branches of government and in many statehouses.

> Republicans won a lot of elections

A lot of them thanks to the results of blatant gerrymandering.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#713

Post by meristohm » Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 1:26 AM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #162

dkobia wrote: post #128

This new administration lays bare what we've known all along - the legislative gridlock and dysfunction in the house of representatives and senate has made them completely incapable of governing -- the least productive in a generation. This is opened up an opportunity for a well funded strongman, and the checks and balances that were intended to protect our democracy are now mere suggestions.

This is the problem with people being OK with executive overreach when "their team" is in power. Eventually, and in fact about 50% of the time - the OTHER team is in power.. and may just push the overreach further. We should desire that the legislative side actually legislates and each branch of the government holds the other two in check, regardless of partisan control. Further having our judicial branch become open…

Yeah, it's the higher-amplitude wobbles of a complex system before it snaps and finds a new equilibrium.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#714

Post by twoodfin » Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 1:26 AM UTC

ModernMech wrote: post #517

twoodfin wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just flatly incorrect. Humphrey's Executor (which may not be long for this world as precedent, anyway) lays out specific cases where "for cause" requirements on termination are Constitutional, but otherwise the President's power to dismiss subordinate officers of the executive branch is absolute.

The Court distinguished between executive officers and quasi-legislative or quasi-judicial officers. The Court held that the latter may be removed only with procedures consistent with statutory conditions enacted by Congress, but the former serve at the pleasure of the President and may be removed at his discretion. The Court ruled that the Federal Trade Commission was a quasi-legislative body because it adjudicated…

What the parent said:

“If the law says the President cannot fire someone, or interfere in an agency’s work, then the President cannot.”

This is, indeed, flatly incorrect. Congress cannot pass a law requiring that the Secretary of State or Defense or Treasury be fired only for cause. The SCOTUS case knocking it down would likely be 9-0.

“Congress writes the laws and can make them say whatever they want” totally ignores separation-of-powers concerns that the Constitution and its guardians in Article III courts take very seriously.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#715

Post by protocolture » Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 1:27 AM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #162

dkobia wrote: post #128

This new administration lays bare what we've known all along - the legislative gridlock and dysfunction in the house of representatives and senate has made them completely incapable of governing -- the least productive in a generation. This is opened up an opportunity for a well funded strongman, and the checks and balances that were intended to protect our democracy are now mere suggestions.

This is the problem with people being OK with executive overreach when "their team" is in power. Eventually, and in fact about 50% of the time - the OTHER team is in power.. and may just push the overreach further. We should desire that the legislative side actually legislates and each branch of the government holds the other two in check, regardless of partisan control. Further having our judicial branch become open…

If you are going to build a machine that can damage you, build it so that you aren't afraid of it being operated by your worst enemy.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#716

Post by protocolture » Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 1:28 AM UTC

jaybrendansmith wrote: post #11

As Americans that believe in the Republic, what exactly are we supposed to do about this? Should we continue to implore congress to take action against this lawless behavior?

You should probably stop believing. The fiction of government checks and balances brought you here.

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#717

Post by johnnyanmac » Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 1:29 AM UTC

Vegenoid wrote: post #568

dizzant wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the second quote, the phrases "in their official capacity" and "as the position of the United States" are doing a lot of heavy lifting. The EO is going out of its way to broadcast that its purpose is to establish a unitary policy position of the executive branch that stems from the President, rather than having "independent" agencies providing contrary position from within "in their official capacity" "as the posi…

> The disincentives that have always prevented the executive from blatantly violating the law are still in force and unchanged. They have been functional through 250 years of Presidents testing the limits of their authority. Can you elaborate on what those disincentives are? I am thinking: - Impeachment - Charged with a crime, found guilty, sent to jail. It seems like this one is no longer possible due to Trump v. Un…

Similar to Roe v Wade and Chevron, they'd need to overturn Trump v. United States and then charge him with crime (or contempt). So there is a ball in the judicial branch if they get pushed too far. Just extra steps.

The 4th one is us getting a retroactive watergate effect where republicans wake up and approval plummets. There's a non-zero chance Trump steps down if he pisses off everyone.

This only happens with some truly heinous actions that can't be spun. Like, bombing american soil or a ulta-blatant conspiracy with China/Russia. Or you know, him killing Medicare/social security (the most likely actions, given the budget proposal).

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#718

Post by youainti » Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 1:34 AM UTC

timoth3y wrote: post #671

dclowd9901 wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Supreme Court and Congress has no enforcement power, though, what recourse is there?

I know this sounds corny, but people are the recourse. We are part of the checks and balances. Whether it is as overt as a soldier refusing to follow an illegal order knowing they are risking court marshal, or as clandestine as mid-level bureaucrat slow-walking damaging policies, or people actually voting in local-to-national elections. Democracy is not a passive form of government.

don't forget that Guatemala had their paro nacional (national strike) a few years ago.

https://apnews.com/article/guatemala-protest-indigenous-giam...

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#719

Post by throw0101c » Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 1:39 AM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #655

timoth3y wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with a highly sympathetic Supreme Court it is hard to imagine this EO standing. It goes against the foundation of not only US law, but couple of hundred years of international democratic tradition in which allegiance is not to a person, but to the nation itself. US civil servants and military alike swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution not the president or their commander. Illegal orders are not o…

If the Supreme Court and Congress has no enforcement power, though, what recourse is there?

> If the Supreme Court and Congress has no enforcement power, though, what recourse is there?

While maybe not practical for the president, but at least for various cabinet Secretaries or Directors: if they do not follow court-issued orders could be found in contempt and jailed until the corrective orders are implemented?

Re: "Ensuring Accountability for All Agencies" – Executive Order

#720

Post by NickC25 » Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 1:40 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #604

NickC25 wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's literally said he wants to be a dictator. He's saluted Kim Jong-Un's generals. He's bent the knee to Vladimir Putain He's whined that it's not fair that he doesn't have the powers that Xi Jinping does. Growing up in the 90s and early 2000s, it was widely known that Donald Trump was a fraud and a complete clown. It will be studied for decades how many people just willingly gave up their ability to call a spade a…

It's pretty simple, working class mostly conservative white Americans have been feeling extremely disenfranchised and the right phrase is nearly "discriminated against" by the left and what were mainstream republicans. This bloc of people were used by entities foreign and domestic to wield power. Large disgruntled groups of people are really good for this. Donald Trump is the perfect symbol for this group and there a…

>Donald Trump is the perfect symbol for this group

How a real estate & brand "billionaire" from NYC who wears orange makeup and lifts and speaks in the most basic of generalities became the rallying symbol for disenfranchised rural white working class conservatives speaks to the absolute degeneracy of our society. Awful.